11. Debate: Stage 4 of the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill

– in the Senedd at 6:12 pm on 21 March 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:12, 21 March 2018

(Translated)

The next item, therefore, on the agenda is Stage 4 of the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill, and I call on the leader of the house to move the motion—Julie James. 

(Translated)

Motion

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.48, approves the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill.

(Translated)

Motion moved.

Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour 6:12, 21 March 2018

Diolch, Llywydd. I formally move the motion.

Can I start by thanking the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, in his absence, for all the work that he has undertaken to develop and bring forward this Bill? I know that he will be bitterly disappointed not to have been here for this final stage of the process, but delighted if the Bill is passed by the clear signal that it will provide of our commitment to defend the devolution settlement while helping to provide legislative continuity as the UK leaves the EU. However, the role of helping to steer the Bill through its final stages has fallen to me, and it's one that I consider to have been a great privilege. The Bill is a product of an intense period of hard work, initially on the part of officials and latterly on the part of the Assembly Members. I am grateful to the Chair, members and staff of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee in particular for the impressive speed at which they were able to consider the Bill and then produce a report setting out a useful set of recommendations, which has made the Bill more robust. 

I'd also like to put on record my thanks to Simon Thomas, for the constructive approach he has taken to this Bill. His challenge and support during the scrutiny stages has certainly improved the Bill. [Interruption.] You speak as you find. It's been very helpful, and, as I say, his challenge and support during the scrutiny stages has certainly improved the Bill. 

I must also give particular thanks to Steffan Lewis for being the first to champion, with great passion, the need for a Welsh continuity Bill, and for the contribution he has made to get us to this position. 

Their contributions have played an important part in the shaping of this Bill.

As a Government, we've been clear throughout every stage of this process that the LDEU Bill is a fallback option, and that remains the case. Our preferred outcome is and always has been that the UK Government's EU withdrawal Bill is amended so that it provides legal continuity and certainty for the UK as a whole, while properly respecting our devolution settlement. We continue to work hard in formal and informal discussions with the UK Government and the Scottish Government to this end, and we remain hopeful that an agreement can be reached that results in the necessary amendments to the EU withdrawal Bill.

However, I want to be clear that the fact it is and remains a fallback option does not diminish the importance of the LDEU Bill today, if it's passed today, because the Bill will do two vital things. Firstly, it will enable us to prepare reasonably and sensibly for the possibility that the EU withdrawal Bill is not amended in a way that allows the Welsh Government to recommend to this Assembly that a legislative consent motion is passed. A key reason for bringing forward this Bill is that our approach to the EU withdrawal Bill is in no sense about trying to block Brexit. To refuse legislative consent without providing an alternative way of securing legislative continuity would be inconsistent with our clear focus on, to quote my friend the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, the form not the fact of Brexit. 

In the event that the Assembly cannot give consent, we would have to ensure that appropriate alternative arrangements are in place to enable EU derived law to continue in Wales with as little disruption as possible. A failure to do so would leave Welsh citizens and businesses subject to an intolerable state of legal uncertainty, with holes in the statue book at the point of Brexit. This Bill will ensure that that will not happen.

Secondly, passing the LDEU Bill will demonstrate to the UK Government that this Assembly is serious about protecting the devolution settlement and about ensuring that the outcomes of two referendums on devolution are properly respected. Brexit must not be used as an excuse to undermine the authority of this Assembly and roll back its powers. It is our responsibility as elected representatives of the people of Wales to stand up for devolution and protect the interests of the nation. I am heartened by the clear support from across the Assembly for that point of view. We shall see in the next few days and weeks whether an agreement is reached on the necessary amendment to the EU withdrawal Bill, and we will continue working to achieve that, which continues to be our preferred outcome.

However, if an agreement is not reached, we will have no choice but to proceed with the implementation of this Bill, which is a robust, intelligent piece of legislation that reflects well on this still young but very determined legislature. I commend the Bill to the Assembly.

Photo of David Melding David Melding Conservative 6:16, 21 March 2018

We remain opposed to this Bill in principle for the reasons I set out in Stage 1. I don't think anything that's happened this afternoon could reassure people that this has in fact been a robust process for any type of Bill, frankly, let alone a constitutional one. But, in essence, as I said at Stage 1, the LCM process is the appropriate constitutional mechanism to protect the devolved settlement. 

I will conclude with this plea: it is time for all parties to focus on the inter-governmental arrangements needed to establish shared governance over UK frameworks. If we're to see a strong union post Brexit, the UK needs to focus on the issues set out in the CLAC report on UK governance post Brexit, which itself echoes many other reports that have been made in other legislatures, in Westminster and, I believe, in Scotland. That is what we need. We do need to have a system that takes us out of Europe but doesn't, in that process, weaken the devolved constitutions. And on that essential matter, we will seek to give every appropriate assistance to the Welsh Government when it operates in the national interest. Thank you.

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 6:18, 21 March 2018

(Translated)

I would like to thank everyone who was involved in the drafting of this Bill. I’d like to thank the Government and Government officials for many constructive conversations. Plaid Cymru and the Government have agreed on a number of areas in this context, and it was a matter of discussing how to deal with them on the face of the Bill. There was one area where we didn’t reach agreement, and that was the cause of the debate that we had earlier. But Plaid Cymru will now support this Bill at its final stage.

Like Julie James, I stand here on the shoulders of someone else who’s done a great deal of work on this Bill, namely Steffan Lewis, and I know that he will be extremely pleased to see this Bill passed by the Assembly this evening. Steffan has made the case for this Bill since last summer. Plaid Cymru’s stance is slightly different to the Government’s stance. We believe that this Bill is an appropriate response to leaving the European Union, and we don’t believe that we necessarily have to wait for Westminster to agree. We have seen a clear effort from the Westminster Government to grab powers through section 11 of the European withdrawal Bill since the very early days, and we have warned on a number of occasions, both myself and Steffan Lewis, had warned that that is what would happen, and we still haven’t seen clearly whether this will be resolved.

The Bill is important, I agree entirely on that, and, as we pass this legislation, I hope that this will now empower the Welsh Government to negotiate with the Westminster Government and to ensure that not an inch of devolved ground is ceded to the UK Government. It is crucially important for form and order as we leave the European Union that there should be pan-UK frameworks. Plaid Cymru doesn’t oppose that. Although we have a different vision for the future of the United Kingdom, we don’t oppose that in any sense, but we haven’t yet seen any sign of collaboration from the Westminster Government on these issues. And it is clear that section 11 in the Westminster Act wouldn’t be necessary unless those powers return automatically and smoothly to this place, without that section being like some dam holding them back in Westminster. It’s essential that we do away with that dam and ensure that those powers flow to this Assembly so that we can use those powers on behalf of the people of Wales, or even to secure further devolution in Wales, depending on what is appropriate.

Photo of Mr Simon Thomas Mr Simon Thomas Plaid Cymru 6:20, 21 March 2018

I do note that this is a real practical threat. This is not some kind of constitutional argument as some have made out over the last couple of days. This is about people's daily lives: how you farm, how we look after the environment, how we look after our social protection, how we live together as communities is intimately connected with how we agree to live together on these islands. Therefore, any attempt to take away powers from this Parliament does affect daily lives. It isn't a stale constitutional question. It's something that directly impacts upon us. 

I just saw today that DEFRA are advertising for policy advisers for a UK agricultural framework. I think that tells you everything that you need to know about DEFRA's idea of how we will leave the European Union. It's not what I share. This Bill will strengthen the hand of the Parliament, and that's why we ultimately support this Bill.  

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:21, 21 March 2018

(Translated)

I call on the leader of the house to reply to the debate—Julie James. 

Photo of Julie James Julie James Labour

Diolch, Llywydd. I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the Assembly that, having been informed of the purport of the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill, Her Majesty has given consent to this Bill. 

I'm very grateful to Members for their comments, and for the support of some today. I'm grateful that the Tories engaged in the debate at the end. It's important that we all have a say in where we are. Llywydd, this is a historic day for devolution in Wales, and it's my pleasure to present this Bill to the Assembly for final approval. I urge Members to show their support for this vital piece of Welsh legislation. Diolch yn fawr.   

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:22, 21 March 2018

(Translated)

In accordance with Standing Order 26.50C, a recorded vote must be taken on Stage 4 motions. Therefore, I call for a vote on the motion to approve the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 39, one abstention, 13 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed. 

(Translated)

Motion to approve the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill: For: 39, Against: 13, Abstain: 1

Motion has been agreed

Division number 706 Motion to approve the Law Derived from the European Union (Wales) Bill

Aye: 39 MSs

No: 13 MSs

No: A-Z by last name

Abstained: 1 MS

Abstained: A-Z by last name

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 6:22, 21 March 2018

(Translated)

That brings today's proceedings to a close. Thank you very much, everyone. 

(Translated)

The meeting ended at 18:22.