Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education – in the Senedd at 1:39 pm on 25 April 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:39, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Welsh Conservative spokesperson, Darren Millar.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative

Diolch, Llywydd. Cabinet Secretary, will you tell us when you'll be in a position to publish the new school organisation code?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

Thank you, Darren. My intention is to publish the code before the summer recess. Subject to approval by this National Assembly for Wales, I would expect the new code to be in operation for the new academic year. 

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative

I'm very pleased to hear that, Cabinet Secretary, because, as you will know, I share your aspiration to make sure that the code is balanced and that it doesn't disfavour or do a disservice to rural schools in particular, many of which, of course, as you will appreciate, are small, Welsh-medium schools. Given that concerns have been raised by Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg and many others about the fact that some local authorities appear to be pressing forward with school reorganisation in the interim, because there is no change in the code at present, what is your message to those local authorities who might be attempting to get one under the barrier, as it were, before the door closes in terms of the changes in the school reorganisation code?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:40, 25 April 2018

Thank you, Darren. All 22 local authorities have had the opportunity to respond to the consultation. It is fair to say that some have responded more positively than others regarding my proposal to establish a list of rural schools and to ensure that there is a presumption against closure, as a starting point for local authorities. What I would say to local authorities that are considering this matter at the moment is that I have been very clear about my direction of travel and my policy intention, and I would urge them to take the spirit of that into consideration between now and any formal publication of the new organisation code.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative 1:41, 25 April 2018

They are very warm words, and I'm sure that the spirit of the code is something that responsible local authorities will, of course, adopt, but the reality is that we have local authorities in Wales—Ynys Môn, Denbighshire and others—that are progressing with school closures in rural communities, and by and large Welsh-medium schools, as a result of the code not being sufficient at present. Can you give absolute assurances, Minister, that you will look carefully at the impact of your changes and make sure that they are measured against the proposals in your new code and not the provisions in the old code, which you said you'd sort out a long time ago?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:42, 25 April 2018

Darren, whilst I recognise that the new code cannot be applied retrospectively, as I have said quite clearly, my expectation is that local authorities should be working with the grain of the new code. They are well aware of my intentions and my policy intentions. Any application that is submitted by a local authority, under either the existing code or the future code, is looked at extremely, extremely carefully because I recognise that, for many of those involved in that process, they need the code there to ensure that any consultation and any proposals are tested to the very highest of standards. As I said, I expect the code to be published this term. Subject to the approval of this Assembly, that code will be available for implementation from the new academic year in September.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:43, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

The UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP

Thank you, Presiding Officer, and good afternoon, Cabinet Secretary. In 2016, there were two reports about school closures. One said that, in the previous 10 years, there'd been 157 school closures across Wales—three out of five of those closures being rural schools. The other said that there were a further 50 schools earmarked for closure. At the same time, local authorities are trying to encourage families to move into villages, and yet some schools in those villages are in danger of being closed or are already closed. What more can you do to reassure parents in Wales that their local school will not be closed in the near future?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:44, 25 April 2018

I would refer you to the answer that I just gave Darren Millar. I have made it absolutely clear that my intention is to revise the current school organisation code to create a list of named rural schools and to establish a presumption against closure of those schools. Importantly, as well, with regard to rural education, we cannot just rest on our laurels by keeping institutions open. Those institutions need to provide rural children with a first-class educational opportunity. Buildings alone are not enough; it is the quality that goes on in those buildings that is absolutely crucial to me and that's why we've introduced a small schools grant to be able to support local authorities to improve standards in small, rural schools that have particular challenges when it comes to delivering the curriculum.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP

Thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for that answer. My question wasn't really specifically about rural schools. I possibly fogged the issue a little bit by mentioning rural schools. My question was actually about local schools, as in schools that children can walk to every day. Children who travel to school by car are exposed to an increase in pollution  of 40 per cent for that journey, compared with those who walk. Increased school runs also lead to increased pollution generally and in the vicinity of the schools. Do you agree with me that allowing school closures to go ahead is at odds with that, necessitating children to stop walking to school and be put in their parents' car or somebody else's car to be driven to school? It's at odds with the Welsh Government's claims to be serious about fighting pollution, as an increasing number of children don't live within walking distance of their nearest school.

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:45, 25 April 2018

I would encourage all parents everywhere, if they do indeed live within walking distance of their schools, to ensure that their children use active travel measures to attend local schools. Welsh Government supports that by providing a safe routes to schools grant—it's not my grant, it is my Cabinet Secretary colleague who has resources for that—which enables—. I know in my own constituency, for instance, in Presteigne, we have been able to put in new pavements and new crossings to encourage parents to do just that, to actually walk their children to school. Of course, in many rural areas, that is simply an impossibility. My own children attend a school some 25 miles away from home and I think even I would be asking too much of them if I expected them to walk. But, where it is possible, I would encourage parents and local authorities to work together to create an environment where people make that choice to actively travel to their school, whether that be on foot or on bike.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP 1:47, 25 April 2018

Well, do you not—? You've just given me a lecture about walking to school and safe routes to school, but you didn't actually answer the question, because I wasn't talking about children who can walk or travel in some way under their own steam, taking exercise to school. I was talking about children who have to be put into vehicular transport to be taken to school. Don't you think it's a contradiction that on the one hand you're forcing parents to put their children into a car to be driven to school and at the same time hectoring people to stay out of their cars and make fewer journeys?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

The Member will be aware that rules regarding access to school transport are defined under the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008. All children who live two miles from a primary school are entitled to local authority transport. All children attending secondary school who are three miles away from a secondary school are entitled to local authority transport. 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:48, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Siân Gwenllian.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru

(Translated)

Thank you very much. These are questions to the Minister for the Welsh language. Yesterday, my colleague the Member of Parliament for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, Liz Saville Roberts, appeared on the Daily Politics programme defending our language following the latest attack on our language by Rod Liddle. Unfortunately, we live in an age where such attacks are seen increasingly acceptable. Attacking the Welsh language, and therefore attacking Welsh speakers—you, me and a number of us here—that, in reality, is a hate crime. But, the law does not reflect that. The European Union has been supportive of minority languages in the UK and the rest of the EU and has acted in order to safeguard the Welsh language and other minority languages. So, what is the Welsh Government going to do to safeguard Welsh speakers from terrible attacks following the period after we leave the European Union?

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:49, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

Thank you very much. I do think it’s important that we condemn any attack on people who speak any language that is a minority language. I do think that the kerfuffle that’s been created hasn’t helped things particularly. The question is: how should we respond? I do think it’s important that we underline how complex it would be to do something in legislative terms in this area. But, I also think it's important that we understand that it isn't acceptable for journalists or anyone else to insult our language in that way.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 1:50, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

Complex or not, it’s clear that there’s a need to look in detail at the situation following losing some of the safeguards that we have at the moment through being a member of the European Union.

Ensuring rights to users to receive services through the medium of Welsh is the basis of the 2011 Act and the standards that have followed that. The standards in health are deficient—they don’t provide anything in terms of the need for a service though the medium of Welsh in our hospitals and they don’t, either, place standards on a number of primary care providers, who are the main link between users and the health service.

Despite these deficient standards, it’s important that the Government moves on with safeguarding these rights through medical contracts, as has been promised. Also, it’s important to introduce all of the other standards that have been on the Minister’s desk, and that of your predecessor, and his predecessor, for a number of years. We’re still waiting for the standards relating to the housing sector, water, postal services, buses, trains a railways, gas and electricity, and telecommunications. Is it a lack of political will that’s behind this? Are you dragging your feet intentionally on this?

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:51, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

No. May I just say that it was important for me that I was in the House of Lords on Monday, protecting the charter of fundamental rights for languages? I do think and believe that that will be carried over and that that will provide some safeguards for us—legal safeguards that may otherwise have been removed.

In terms of your question on standards, you will be aware that the negotiations on what should happen in primary care are ongoing. Medical contracts—a great deal of work has been done on those already. One other thing we’re doing, of course, is that we’ve established a pilot with Working Welsh in order to ensure that we’re aware of what the problems are in terms of introducing these changes in primary care, just so that we can see how easy it would be, or otherwise, and how much support would be required in that area.

In terms of other standards, you will be aware that we intend to bring a new Welsh language Bill forward, and what’s important is that we do have some sort of assurance that what we have on the table will comply with any changes that we introduce. So, I don’t think it makes sense, at the moment, for us to bring new standards forward until we have far more clarity on what the future holds.

Photo of Siân Gwenllian Siân Gwenllian Plaid Cymru 1:53, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

That is my concern, of course. The feeling is that the new legislation, whenever that is going to see the light of day, is holding things back substantially at the moment, and is, therefore, holding back the rights of Welsh speakers.

I mentioned that perhaps it’s political goodwill that’s behind this. Perhaps it’s a lack of staffing that's the problem in introducing the standards. I’m still awaiting an answer to a written question that I sent in January asking how many staff have been located specifically in the Welsh language unit, namely the staff that are responsible for preparing the regulations regarding the standards. When I asked you this in committee, you said that there were a number of people working on them—'loads', you said. When will I have a proper answer? I think that there aren’t loads working on the standards specifically in your Government at all, and that you’re ashamed to announce that there is only one—two, perhaps, at the most—doing this important and vital work. You look surprised, but I haven’t had an answer, so I can only speculate. 

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:54, 25 April 2018

(Translated)

Fair enough, but I think what’s important—. You have received a response from me. You'll be aware that staffing issues are issues for the Permanent Secretary, and I will push her to respond to you on your question. I do think it’s important that we now focus. If our target is to reach a million Welsh speakers, then I do think it’s crucially important that we emphasise the importance of promoting the language. And one thing that I do hope to see in future is that we change the emphasis; that we shift it from legislation to ensuring that people are able to use the Welsh language and that we promote the use of the Welsh language. That’s what’s important. You can’t force people to speak a language. We have to convince them that that’s the way forward, and that’s what I want to see happening in the future.

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