8. Will the Cabinet Secretary outline the Welsh Government's position on school mergers and closures? OAQ52023

Thank you, Bethan. Responsibility for the planning of school places rests with local authorities. When proposing substantial changes to schools, local authorities and other proposers must comply with the oft-mentioned schools organisation code and must consider a range of factors—the prime consideration being the interests of learners.  

Thank you for that reply. I have raised this issue with you here before with regard to the proposal to close Cymer Afan Comprehensive School in my region, and I heard you earlier speak about the choice of active travel for learners. But in this instance, if Cymer Afan is closed and they are expected to travel nearly 10 miles to either Cimla or Margam, it may mean that they do not have that particular choice. Clearly, the future generations well-being assessments must take into account sustainable transport, so I'm trying to understand what conversations you've had with the Future Generations Commissioner for Wales to ensure that when there isn't that option of sustainable transport, what actually happens to those children and to their well-being.

I have had no conversations with the commissioner on that particular subject. The organisation code does require local authorities to carry out an impact assessment with regard to the well-being of learners. It also does give indicative timings of what would be regarded as a length of travel time that would not be suitable for children, but it really is for the individual local authority to ensure that, in carrying out its consultation with local people, it does that in line with the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013 and the code.

Cabinet Secretary, I know that the future of small rural and semi-rural schools has been a huge issue in your constituency, and it's Councillor Brigitte Rowlands now, who represents the Mawr ward in Swansea, who's facing the same sort of challenges you've had yourself in the past, because there are two schools there that are earmarked for closure—shall I put it that way? I recognise the awkward position that the local authority is in, but I also recognise that a significant number, across Wales now, of our smaller schools have either already gone or are in the process of going, leaving a much smaller number of small schools that have survived the 90-pupil test, if you like. I heard your answers to earlier questions in this session, but do we need to be looking now at tweaks, shall we say, to the 90-pupil count guidance, in effect, to allow for the fact that, sometimes, it's not surplus places that are the priority argument in keeping schools open and there might be other considerations that are more important?

The primary consideration that all local authorities should have when planning their school places and thinking about school organisation is the interests of the learner and the quality of education that that institution is able to offer young people. You'll be aware of the answers I gave earlier. We are pushing forward with the designation of a list of rural schools and then a presumption against closure. Does that mean that there will never be any changes? I have to be honest and clear with people: no. But what it does mean is that the local authority will have to demonstrate that they have exhausted all other options and they have considered all other options before they take a decision to close a particularly small rural school.

Crucially, as I say, we also need to support the delivery of rural education. There are particular challenges about maintaining high standards, especially in small rural primary schools. So, for instance, you and I will both be aware of schools where, perhaps, the classroom teacher has pupils who are year 4, year 5 and year 6 within a single classroom, and that presents particular challenges in the differentiation of work, for instance. That's why we have made available a small rural schools grant that local authorities have been able to apply for to be able to look at innovative approaches to support the quality of education in our small rural schools, because keeping them open is one thing, but they have to offer excellent opportunities for our young people.

Cabinet Secretary, in your responses to both Suzy Davies and Bethan Jenkins, you talked about the interests of the learner and the well-being of the learner, which I fully support. But, of course, the well-being of the learner also depends on the well-being of the communities the learner lives in and is educated within, and, as has been pointed out, Cymer Afan is actually proposed to be closed with pupils transported and transferred a distance of over 10 miles. The experience they have of getting home post school education—in other words, they often stay behind for after-school activities, and that's an important part of the well-being of the learner, to be able to do that—means that there will be difficulties in that aspect. When you look at this, because it might well come across your desk, will you also consider the well-being of the community and the well-being of the learner beyond just the educational experience inside the school itself? Will you also look at, perhaps, whether there needs to be a consultation under the new school reorganisation guidelines, and not the old ones?

Could I assure David and, indeed, all Members here that any applications to close a school that do find their way onto my desk are scrutinised forensically and are done so in accordance with existing Welsh law and statutory guidance?

While holding a surgery in Maesteg, I was asked by parents about school closures in their area. They stated the new super-sized school being built in Port Talbot did not have sufficient children living locally in the area to fill the places and, therefore, children were coming from much further away and expected to fill these places. Their concern was that some children living a distance away would mean that, in one day, they would be on the school bus for almost two hours. Therefore, what discussions have you had with parents raising these concerns and do you not agree with me that that is an unreasonable expectation of both parents and children?

I would encourage all those, and I'm sure they already have—if they have concerns about the statutory notice that has been put out by Neath Port Talbot, then they need to participate in that consultation. As I said earlier, there is some guidance available that talks about notional travel times, what would be regarded as a disproportionate amount of time that one would expect a child to travel to education, but I'm not able to comment any further on any particular proposals, just in case they do arrive at Welsh Government for me to determine.

Thank you. I’m in close contact with campaigners who are very concerned about consultations on the closure of a number of rural schools on Anglesey. I do understand the pressure on the council and I would like you to consider one element of those pressures, namely that one set of your officials, to all intents and purposes, is promoting the closure of rural schools by suggesting that funding from the twenty-first century schools programme won’t be available unless the local authority presents new building proposals that include the closure of existing schools. And on the other hand, you have officials who are completing the work on the new school organisation code, which will set a prejudice in favour of keeping rural schools open. In the current case on Anglesey, we need a new school in Llangefni and the expansion of the school too, but the conclusion that the council has come to is that as part of that, they would have to close other schools—Bodffordd, Henblas and Talwrn are being considered for closure. Are you in a position to tell the council that those two things, namely the availability of funding for a new school and the need to close existing rural schools, do not have to be linked together and that one isn’t dependent on the other?

Rhun, it really is a matter for the local authority in Ynys Môn to plan their school places, but let me be absolutely clear: any application under the twenty-first century schools programme for capital moneys is judged on a criteria, is examined by an external board to Welsh Government, with independent people looking at the value behind that individual application, and I'm not aware of applications being predicated on a need to close schools otherwise. With regard to the availability of the twenty-first century schools programme to build new schools, the programme is available for school refurbishment of an existing site, replacement schools, as well as newly constituted schools, and there are examples across Wales of all three, where the money is being used to refurbish an existing school, to replace an existing school building, or in some cases—and I was in Anglesey opening some of them recently—where there has been an amalgamation of schools, to create an area school with new facilities.