Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:36 pm on 25 April 2018.
Can I say how personally devastated I am by your statement, Cabinet Secretary? And, in the interests of time, I will just concentrate on some questions. Over the years, we've gained powers here in response to referendum results that we've had here in Wales. Twenty four of our powers are about to be frozen for up to seven years in a deep freeze. That's handing powers from this place to elsewhere—powers that have always come to this place from Brussels to Cardiff without any intersection.
On Monday afternoon, in the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, we had a discussion on clause 11. You say in your statement: 'This outcome is not perfect.' I agree with you there, Cabinet Secretary.
'We would have preferred there to be no Clause 11'.
I also agree with you there. And obviously you made the point in CLAC on Monday afternoon that the inversion of clause 11 in March that the UK Government had suggested still wasn't enough for you—still wasn't enough for you; there was too much ambiguity. It still looked as though Westminster were going to run the timetable, the powers and everything, despite the fact that they inverted it. In other words, the powers weren't going from Brussels to Westminster and then, potentially, on to Cardiff. Now they're going from Brussels to Cardiff with some retained in London—the inversion bit. So, I was with you up to that point and I was with you with your dissatisfaction at the current state of play on Monday afternoon. So rapid things have happened in those 24 hours. Obviously, 24 hours is a long time in politics, but can you just explain what exactly happened between Monday afternoon and Tuesday afternoon—yesterday?
In the interests of time, my only other question is about shared governance, because we are where we are. It's about the frameworks and who decides. In other words, what we want is confirmation that the old diktat of 'Westminster decides and then it tells us what to do' is not good enough. There is lots of creative use of the word 'normally' here, and people can interpret 'normally' in several ways. We want an assurance in this desperate situation that the shared governance as regards vitally important frameworks is actually truly shared. In other words, that our input here from the National Assembly for Wales and from Welsh Government will actually be acknowledged, and that there will be parity of esteem and parity of performance, as opposed to just Westminster deciding and us lamely following. Because it is disappointing that Welsh Government has put its trust in a Tory Government in Westminster.
Daily here, we hear disparaging remarks from Labour Assembly Members about the Tory Government in Westminster, the very same Tory Government now that you have entrusted with the details to make sure that we do not lose powers. Trust is a very fragile commodity, particularly when you're dealing with the Conservatives. We've had people judging Conservative performance today, even, as regards austerity, welfare reform, women's pensions, all the rest of it—last week as well. Now, you are trusting that very same Government that has driven our people into poverty.
And my final point, people always say: why has Wales got fewer powers, less influence than Scotland, than Northern Ireland, than Manchester, where there's devolved policing, than the London assembly? Well, you know why? Because, at the end of the day, Westminster Government always knows that Labour in Wales will always capitulate.