Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

1. Questions to the Cabinet Secretary for Education – in the Senedd at 1:37 pm on 23 May 2018.

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Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:37, 23 May 2018

(Translated)

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Mohammad Asghar. 

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Minister, the growing skills gap, particularly in the field of digital skills, is hindering the ability of companies to find the workers they need. Science is essential for people thinking about a career in areas such as IT, engineering and medicine, but a third of Welsh school pupils shunned specialist science GCSEs, a problem that you yourself have acknowledged. What action will you take to increase the number of pupils, especially girls, studying science in our schools?

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:38, 23 May 2018

Diolch yn fawr, Mohammad Asghar. You will be aware that we are intensely aware of the need to upskill our workforce in areas where employers are telling us that there is a shortage, and that's why we've got this structure called the regional skills partnership, which has been set up to ask those employers to feed into those structures, to say, 'What are the skills that you are looking for as employers?' We know that they've come back to us in every one of the three regional skills partnerships and said, 'Digital skills are really important. We need to drive up the level of those skills'. 

We've now provided a £10 million funding pot for further education colleges to respond to the needs of employers, and digital skills, I am sure, will be reflected in terms of people pitching into that pot and saying, 'This is how we're responding to the needs of the employers.' I know that the education Secretary has done a huge amount of work in terms of driving up the standards relating to digital skills in our schools and that we are working very hard to make sure that the new school curriculum will reflect the needs of the new economy. 

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative 1:39, 23 May 2018

The Welsh Government has a target of 100,000 new, high-quality apprenticeships. I believe that the take-up of apprenticeships in Wales would be incresed if the benefits they can bring are explained to people at an early stage and age also. Good careers information in school is vital, but there are issues with the quality and availability of careers advice, including the lack of trained careers advisers and a lack of knowledge of apprenticeships and vocational training by school staff. What is the Minister doing to improve the quality of careers advice and ensure that apprenticeships are properly promoted here in Wales?

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:40, 23 May 2018

I think you're absolutely right; we need to do a lot more to make sure that people understand that apprenticeships are a real route to quality employment. We have a whole series of initiatives that are helping us to try and engage people, in particular in some of the STEM subjects that you talked about earlier, to make sure that they are responding to what the economy needs. So, we have a whole series of initiatives. One of the best is a thing called Have a Go where we invite literally thousands of schoolchildren in to really test out their abilities to work and to apply themselves in a more practical way with vocational skills. I think that is already having an impact, but we are trying to do a lot more to help the careers service in Wales to make sure that they are imparting the skills that they have to the schools so that they can give the advice that you talk about. 

Photo of Mohammad Asghar Mohammad Asghar Conservative 1:41, 23 May 2018

It is 55 years since the then Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, warned that, if the country was to prosper, a new Britain would need to be forged in the white heat of a scientific revolution. That was Mr Wilson. Today, technological changes are so fast that skills are changing faster than formal educators can keep up with them. By the time a curriculum is crafted and approved by the various bodies and students finally graduate, their digital skills may not have kept pace with the technology. How will the Minister ensure that the educational institutions in Wales keep up with the pace of change in this world?

Photo of Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Baroness Mair Eluned Morgan Labour 1:42, 23 May 2018

Thank you. You're absolutely right; it really is time for us to rethink that phrase 'the white heat of technology' and to adapt it to a new age. You're right; if we thought that was going quickly, I think the next phase is going to be even quicker. So, you're absolutely right; we need to have a much more flexible response to the changes that are going to be taking place. So, already, the digital skills that we're teaching our children will be out of date in a few years' time. That's why, first of all, we need to make sure that the people we have in, for example, our further education colleges, are up to speed, up to date, and that they have the right kind of technology and kit within their schools, and we're helping to fund some of that. But also that we underline the importance of lifelong learning, because unless we all start to take lifelong learning seriously, then I think we're going to get into trouble as a nation in terms of how we position ourselves for the future economy.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:43, 23 May 2018

(Translated)

The Plaid Cymru Spokesperson, Llyr Gruffydd.

Photo of Llyr Gruffydd Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru

Diolch yn fawr. Does the Cabinet Secretary accept that school funding in Wales has reached crisis point?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

Llyr, what I accept, because of continuing austerity, is that education is having to work in an atmosphere of restricted budgets. I acknowledge that and that's why I'm taking every opportunity that I can to get as much money to the front line as I can.

Photo of Llyr Gruffydd Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru

Well, I didn't expect you not to recognise as much, to be honest, but the front line is now saying quite clearly that there is a crisis and that we have reached that crisis point. It's leading to increased class sizes, which I know is something that you don't wish to see. It's led to an over-reliance on teaching assistants, who very often aren't properly paid. It's having a detrimental impact on the curriculum, with reduced contact hours, teachers having to teach a broader range of subjects, and some subjects indeed just disappearing altogether.

I'm just wondering whether you have in your mind a minimum level of per-pupil funding in Wales that is necessary to make sure that each child receives a decent education. I'm not going to ask you what it is, but I'm sure you do have, or least I hope that the Government has, some sort of idea of where the line is that we mustn't dip under at all costs. Indeed, at its national conference in November, NAHT Cymru said that school leaders simply don't know if there's enough money in the school system anymore and they called for a national audit of school budgets. I'm wondering whether you would consider undertaking such an audit.

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:44, 23 May 2018

I am aware that it is the policy of NAHT to have a national funding formula. At this stage, I don't believe that that's appropriate. We have a diverse education system in Wales, whether that is delivering education in a very small rural school where the costs, obviously, are higher, or delivering education to a highly deprived community, where we know we need to put additional resources in to support those children. We have, as a Government, tried our very best in the recent budget funding rounds to protect local government spend, because that's where most schools get their resources from, through the revenue support grant. On top of that, I as the education Minister have increased the amount of money going into the pupil development grant, despite the difficult circumstances we find ourselves in. We have also identified money to assist with the reduction of class sizes in those areas where we know it'll make the biggest difference. All local authorities have seen the benefit of that investment. 

Photo of Llyr Gruffydd Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru 1:45, 23 May 2018

But the funding picture is a rather discombobulated one, isn't it, when you look at, for example, the way the Government funds education. Some money goes to consortia and some money goes to local authorities—some of that goes to local authorities through the RSG, some of it goes to local authorities through grants, some goes straight to schools and, of course, we have 22 local authorities in Wales, which, basically, means 22 different formulas and, potentially, a postcode lottery in terms of how much funding is spent on each child depending on where they live.

The reality, of course, is that the education budget has dropped this year. We've seen reports recently as well of sixth-form funding dropping by a fifth in the last six years, and even today reports of £4 million being drained out of education towards the apprenticeship levy. So, do you not believe that it is time to at least bring everybody together—all of the stakeholders: the councils, the consortia, the teachers, parents and pupils—just to look again at how Welsh schools are funded?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:46, 23 May 2018

Well, Llyr, you're right; there are a number of ways in which individual schools are funded. I continue to believe that local authorities are best placed to be able to identify need in their own local area and respond accordingly. I was very grateful to receive assurances from Debbie Wilcox, leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, that local authorities would continue to prioritise funding in education. Where we have concerns that maybe money isn't getting to the front line, officials are involved in those discussions with regional consortia and individual local education authorities. As I've said previously, if people have concerns about the way in which notional education spend is calculated for the RSG, both I and the Cabinet Secretary for local government have said that we are happy to look at that data. But there is an understanding between us and Welsh local government that that will not be imposed upon them. They have to come to the table to ask that of us, but we stand ready to work with them if they feel now's the time to update the data with regard to calculations for education in the RSG.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:48, 23 May 2018

(Translated)

UKIP spokesperson, Michelle Brown.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP

Thank you, Presiding Officer. Cabinet Secretary, as you have overall responsibility for the education system in Wales, it's ultimately your responsibility to ensure that public funds are applied properly to the benefit of children and young people in Wales. How do you monitor how educational budgets are being used by local authorities, schools and consortia?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

I would refer you to the answer I gave to Llyr Huws Gruffydd. We have in-depth conversations with individual local authorities, with the WLGA and with the regional consortia. If we are unclear that the funding is being allocated in a way that is satisfactory to us, then officials work with that organisation to provide clarity and we act accordingly.

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP 1:49, 23 May 2018

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. You'll perhaps be aware that the BBC reported today that approximately £4 million is being taken out of school budgets to pay for local authorities' apprenticeship levies to the UK Government. They're also reporting that while some councils are paying this levy out of the overall budget, 13 of them are paying it out of the school budgets. Amongst councils that are paying it out of the overall budget, their educational budget may well be affected unless the council has ring-fenced it. I know that the apprenticeship levy is a UK tax, and that you and the Welsh Government have absolutely no control over it, but can you tell us what impact that paying that apprenticeship levy is having on school budgets and the staff levels of schools?

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

The Member is right; the apprenticeship levy is not something that we have control over at the Welsh Government. We have raised, as a Government, our concerns with Westminster on how the apprenticeship levy is working. Officials meet regularly to raise concerns with the Department for Education on issues linked to apprenticeships, and we understand that officials in the Department for Education—[Interruption.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:50, 23 May 2018

We don't need a supporting act from Darren Millar to the Minister. 

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

We understand that officials in the Department for Education are currently reviewing the operation of the apprenticeship levy and—[Interruption.] 

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

Sorry, Cabinet Secretary, but we now we have one of your fellow Cabinet Secretaries joining in, so let's stop it and allow the Cabinet Secretary to continue. 

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat

As I was trying to say, Presiding Officer, we are in dialogue with the Department for Education at Westminster regarding the operation of the apprenticeship levy. We have an urgent need to minimise the levy's impact on the apprenticeship programme in Wales. I understand why it is so frustrating that schools find themselves in this position, and that's why we need this programme to be reformed. 

Photo of Michelle Brown Michelle Brown UKIP 1:51, 23 May 2018

Cabinet Secretary, I'm very glad to hear that you're having conversations with Westminster about the impact of the apprentcieship levy. The additional learning needs Bill has introduced a presumption in favour of pupils with ALN being placed in mainstream schools. This is a move I wholeheartedly applaud. I grew up in an era when people with additional learning needs and disability were effectively segregated from the rest of the population. I really couldn't be happier that it's been consigned to the dustbin now. But at a time when there are increasing burdens on schools—school budgets being hit, as you've described—ALN provision is now in danger of being detrimentally affected, and I'm already hearing reports from constituents that support staff for children and young people with additional learning needs are being cut. However, Wales gets a payback from the UK Government from the apprenticeship levy. So, what discussions have you had with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance with regard to compensating local authorities and schools for the losses they've sustained because of the levy, such as refunding the levy paid, so that at least the schools don't lose out? 

Photo of Kirsty Williams Kirsty Williams Liberal Democrat 1:52, 23 May 2018

I can assure the Member that I have numerous conversations with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance over my priorities for investment in Welsh education. With regard to special educational needs, I welcome the support of the UKIP Member for our policy of transformation in this area of schools. If we are to raise standards and close the attainment gap, we cannot do that without supporting all of our students who have additional learning needs, and that's why we've allocated £20 million to implement the new legislation that this Assembly recently passed.