I thought that as well. There's a difference in tone and words, isn't there? Let me say this: I hear what my good friend and constituency neighbour has to say, and I understand the point that he makes. And I agree, at a terrible risk to myself, possibly, that putting the citizen at the centre of our democracy and how we deliver services doesn't simply depend on structures. I agree with that, as it happens. But we must be able to have structures that are resilient and sustainable in order to devolve those responsibilities and those services to them. We do need that and we don't have that at the moment, and local government accepts that. So, we need to find a structure that will enable us to devolve those powers and to provide for those responsibilities to reside at a more local level, and I'm happy to have that conversation. I've said on many occasions that I'm not wedded to any particular map and I'm not wedded to any particular structure. But what I am wedded to is sustainability. What I am wedded to its protecting the workforce. What I am wedded to is high-quality services, and what I am wedded to is effective democratic accountability.

What you can't say is that you want all these objectives but that you're not prepared to will any means in order to do it. So, there needs to be a serious conversation about that, and I very much welcome the contribution from Monmouthshire on this matter, but what I will say to him very, very seriously is that, in order to achieve those things, the conversation must move on from an argument over a map and an argument over lines on a map. What he has described is very similar to the sort of ambition that I have, which demands change; it doesn't demand staying as we are. Staying as we are is the worst possible solution for Welsh local government, because that will mean that, over the coming years, whoever sits in this seat and whoever sits in this place will manage decline and not expansion. I want to see a renaissance of local government in Wales; I don't want to be responsible for its decline.