I recognise some of the comments that you've made about the historic nature of some of the challenges that the board faced at its inception in the way it was organised. That was set out in the Ockenden report we're discussing today, and, indeed, that was set out in the HASCAS review, and it's been really clear that the structure that was implemented at the time was not implemented in an optimal way and caused real challenges in the way that health and care were delivered in a range of different areas. That definitely affected mental health services. So, some of this has been about reorganising the structure of delivery. There's more to do within that. I will return to that later in responding to your final point.

I think it's important to recognise the improved leadership that has been delivered by the director of mental health and the need to deliver a different culture within the service that is provided, and that is work that is continuing and it must be part of the response to both the Ockenden report and the HASCAS report. Indeed, Healthcare Inspectorate Wales have commented positively on the improvements in the structure that is now permanent and they recognise that is fit for purpose. Indeed, Donna Ockenden herself comments that the structure is significantly improved. 

I don't accept your characterisation that the conclusions of the HASCAS report are somehow to be disbelieved or put to one side. I think they are consistent with the findings in the Ockenden review. Neither report is a positive report for the health board; they have both spelt out real and significant challenges that still have yet to be properly addressed. That is why we're in this position and why I'm making yet another statement on mental health services within north Wales.

I want to return to your final point as well, and that is your claim that, unless service users are involved—people who take part in the service—then we won't get the design and the delivery of the service right, wherever it is, including in mental health. And yet that is exactly what the new director of mental health has done, and been recognised for doing so, in designing the new mental health strategy for north Wales that deliberately took in and involved staff and service users, and, in taking that strategy forward, those same groups of people are being involved in what action should look like. I actually think that the new director of mental health and the approach that he has taken, which has been supported by the senior leadership within the health board, is one to be recognised, as indeed it has been by external partners as well. The challenge is not just saying there is a better approach now, but how that better approach leads to better outcomes and a consistent report back from staff and the public about the quality of the care they're taking part in.