Item 9 on our agenda this afternoon is a motion to approve the financial resolution in respect of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance, Mark Drakeford.

Motion NDM6770 Julie James

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

Motion moved.

Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Lywydd. Members will recall that when we debated Stage 1 of the Public Services Ombudsman (Wales) Bill, it was supported by all parties in terms of its general principles, but that I was unable, in the conventional way, to move a financial resolution because there were a number of recommendations made by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee about changes that were needed to the explanatory memorandum and regulatory impact assessment, including a more robust analysis of costs in some areas.

Could I put on record my thanks, Dirprwy Lywydd, to the Member in charge, particularly for the way in which he has worked with the Government over the weeks that have passed since that Stage 1 debate and the very careful attention that he has paid to making the changes that allow me to say today that the Government is able to recommend that the National Assembly agrees the financial resolution to allow the Bill to proceed to the next stage of scrutiny? Thank you.

I now call on the Chair of the Finance Committee, Simon Thomas.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Cabinet Secretary for the constructive meetings that have been held between himself and myself, and the officials of the Finance Committee and Government officials, which have led us to a position where the financial resolution is being brought forward today. I'd like to inform Members that the changes have been suggested and discussed have now been made to the explanatory memorandum as a result of the recommendations noted in the Stage 1 report of the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee. We as a Finance Committee have published a revised explanatory memorandum, which is on this Plenary agenda and demonstrates the changes to the regulatory impact assessment. 

The changes include an explanation of staff costs, providing greater clarity on unit costs for own-initiative investigations, and justification for the additional staff costs arising from accepting oral complaints. The estimate of these costs has not changed, but it does provide greater clarity. The RIA also includes the financial implications in terms of private health service providers arising from the proposed extension to the ombudsman’s powers to investigate an element of private health service in a public-private pathway.

The net impact of all of these changes to the estimate of the financial implications of the Bill is to increase the cost between approximately £39,000 and £56,000 over five years. The revised cost for the ombudsman, public bodies and private healthcare providers is estimated, now, to range from £1.9 to £2 million over five years. Of course, costs are not what's at the heart of the Bill, but the equality committee has also suggested that the Bill has the potential to deliver cost savings to the wider public sector. I hope that, on the basis of the revised explanatory memorandum that has been tabled, the Assembly will agree to the motion this afternoon.

I can't support this motion before the Senedd today. I declare an interest as operating in local government, so I'm fully aware of how the office of the ombudsman is being misused. [Interruption.] If you would give me a few seconds, then I'll explain. What colleagues in local government are finding is that when they try—[Interruption.] Thank you. What colleagues in local government are finding is that when they try to scrutinise officers, when they ask tough questions, then the referral to the ombudsman is actually being used as a threat, now. That's a very serious matter—[Interruption.] Here we have a Minister who was in business, formerly, with the ombudsman, so please, Minister, turn yourself around and listen to what I've got to say. What—[Interruption.]

Carry on, Neil McEvoy.

Well, I think the Minister's got a really good point, actually, because he's alleging that I was found guilty of bullying. What I was found guilty of was saying that I wanted to restructure the council, and that, perversely, was interpreted by the Minister's friend or former business partner, whatever he is, as supposedly—

Sorry. This is not relevant to the motion on the order paper—[Interruption.] Just a moment, I'm still speaking. Please refer to the motion on the order paper and carry on with the financial resolution to the public services ombudsman Bill. Carry on with your speech.

As I said, it's just not something I can support. The office of the ombudsman is being misused. The public out there are telling me that there are serious reservations about the integrity of this office. And I'll leave my comments there, and I will be voting against. 

Thank you very much. Can I now call on the Cabinet Secretary for Finance to reply to the debate? 

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. 

The Government is eager to move this Bill forward to the next stage, and after hearing what Simon Thomas said, I hope that other Members of the Assembly will be willing to support the motion before the Assembly this afternoon. There's nothing in what the other Member said that's relevant to the motion, so I hope that the other Members will be willing to help the Bill move to Stage 2. 

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we'll defer voting on this item until voting time. 

Voting deferred until voting time.

Voting time is next on the agenda. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I am going to proceed to a vote.