6. Debate on the General Principles of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:26 pm on 18 September 2018.

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Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Labour 5:26, 18 September 2018

I think, curiously, in respect of Mark's comments there, in an ideal world, if we had unlimited budgets, if austerity was lifted, I think we know what we'd do, and I think I know where the evidence takes us, but, unfortunately, we're not in that situation. So, some of our challenge here as responsible Assembly Members is to decide how we can make best use of the resource we have to change the lives of young people, but we have wider debates on that issue as well. But thank you for that comment.

In terms of the balance between what's on the face of the Bill and particularly our belief that operational details are best actually belonging in an administrative scheme, this is partly because the pilots are still ongoing, we're still learning from them, we're still adjusting the scheme as we go and we will continue doing this. It is our belief that, different from the setting up of the legal mechanism and the consents required to set up the HMRC mechanism, the operation of the scheme itself is best described—with the exceptions that I've sent out in letters to the committee Chairs—actually within an administrative scheme. But I will go into this more in subsequent sections of this debate, I'm sure.

And that takes us to the balance between what is on the face and in the regs, and I have already explained that I'm exploring the possibility of placing some more on the face of the Bill, but that is in light of some committees who have said, 'Can you retain the flexibility to make sure that we can change and mutate this as we go forward?' But I am exploring that possibility. And in response to the calls for a child's rights impact assessment, it is being developed for the offer as a whole and we will share that when it's ready and as appropriate—and I'm keeping my eye on the time there as well as we go through this. 

Jane, thank you very much for your contribution and, again, the broad support for the mechanism described in this Bill of working with HMRC. We will continue to work closely with HMRC on our requirements and on the estimated costs for delivery of the system as well, and I'm committed to sharing the updated costs with the committee as these are refined. We had an independent consultancy invovled in developing the RIA for the Bill, and I believe that our high-level estimates of the costs are, indeed, as robust as can possibly be, as I explained originally to the committee. The preferred option for delivery of the application and eligibility checking system for the childcare offer has been tested with Welsh Revenue Authority colleagues, and officials have discussed the lessons learned and experiences from the establishment of the WRA and the working arrangements that were in place with HMRC at that time. So, the WRA will continue to be involved in a quality assurance capacity as we move forward. 

If I can turn to the comments from my colleague Mick Antoniw, Chair of CLAC, I have listened, indeed, with genuine concern as a former Chair of the CLA committee as well about the balance between what is on the face and what is left to regulations, and this is why I have, indeed, set out bringing forward some amendments during Stage 2, to provide more detail on the face of the Bill, especially around who is an eligible child, and I'll write to the committee to explain my thinking. But I do have to balance my response to this with calls from CYPE sitting to my right here for some flexibility in the future. I'm also exploring what might be possible in response to the recommendation of requiring WMs to provide the childcare, and I will be writing to the committees once we've had an opportunity to consider in further detail.

Now, there continues to be considerable engagement with key stakeholders on the childcare offer. We are testing the offer on the ground as we speak, and an evaluation is being undertaken, and we have undertaken to share in an interim form the findings of that as soon as we possibly can, and before we get to Stage 3. So, I hope that gives some assurances, including to some of the more technical recommendations. Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm keeping an eye on the time—