2. What discussions has the Cabinet Secretary had with the Ministry of Justice regarding the future of the probation service in Wales? OAQ52694

I met with UK Ministers in July and regularly meet with the head of Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service in Wales to discuss the probation services provided to Welsh prisoners.

Thank you for that answer, Cabinet Secretary. As you're aware, in 2014, the then Tory-led UK Government decided to privatise the probation service, splitting it in two: the National Probation Service and the community rehabilitation companies, which are also here in Wales. Now, last December, we had a report from the chief inspector of the Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Probation, Dame Glenys Stacey, which expressed deep concern over the failures of the privatisation and the chaos that existed in the system. Last week, she had another report expressing deep and grave concerns over the safety of victims of domestic abuse because of the failure of those private companies to protect those victims from their abusers.

Now, it's time, surely, that these contracts were killed now and that this whole responsibility was transferred to the Welsh Government. Do you agree with me that the UK Government needs to take action—not in 2020, two years down the line when these are going to have been failing for another two years, but now, and transfer these to the Welsh Government so that you can take the actions necessary for Welsh citizens?

I do agree with the Member for Port Talbot, in terms of the analysis that he has of the failures of the probation service. These are matters I have discussed both with the service itself and with Ministers in the United Kingdom Government. I agree with him also that these matters should properly be held here, and be the responsibility of the Welsh Government. He may be interested to know that the UK Government did announce in July that there would be a consultation on the future of the probation service. The Welsh Government has responded to that consultation. I will be leading a debate in this place on 23 October to listen to what Members have to say about how they want to see the service developed in Wales, but I was very pleased to see that the proposals that the Ministry of Justice are making for Wales are distinct and recognise the distinct position of Wales. I believe they are a first step on the route to the sort of probation service that delivers coherent and holistic services in Wales and delivers for the people of Wales.

The Tories' ideological privatisation of the probation service has been an unmitigated, if not predictable, disaster. It's left existing probation staff feeling demoralised, and it's also increased the danger posed to the public. The Tories should be full of regret and shame for wrecking what was an effective public service. 

In a briefing earlier year, Napo, the trade union representing probation officers, said that the present structure has probably come too far to be reversed, but they have proposed some measures to ameliorate the consequences of probation privatisation. This includes the establishment of a locally accountable commissioning body that could comprise the Welsh Government and our police and crime commissioners. While we wait for the devolution of the probation service, would you be willing to take part in such a body, and can you tell us whether you've begun talks to progress such an arrangement yet?

Presiding Officer, in my earlier answer, I said I've been in discussion on these matters at both a ministerial and official level for some time, and I've made that point clear to Members here on previous occasions. I do recognise the proposal made by the Member for the Rhondda, and I am very happy to enter into conversations about that. However, at the moment, we are looking at the reunification of the probation service in Wales, as a single, publicly accountable service. We are looking at the way in which the community rehabilitation contracts are ended in Wales, and that the service is provided as a single, coherent, public service—and that is the basis of the conversations I'm having at the moment. And it is to further explore Members' views on these matters that I have proposed that we have a debate on this matter later in the month.