Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:30 pm on 3 October 2018.
Well, I think you've actually made the point for a people's vote, because the only way of testing that comment—which I disagree with—would be by actually putting it to the people. Because I think what you actually have is that people did know what they were voting for, but what is clearly happening now is that is unravelling and it is completely clear that every promise that enabled people to vote to actually leave the EU is now unravelling, and that is why we get to a situation where there has to be a vote in Parliament, first of all, on Theresa May's deal. And the reason I asked the question earlier is because of this: if Theresa May cannot honour the promises that were made in the deal, then that deal has to be voted down and there has to be then a decision, ultimately, by the people. Now, I think the people's vote is actually a badge, and it is showing—. It is a badge that is reflecting people's attitudes to the fact that they were sold a pup. They were defrauded during the referendum.
The reason why I think it's going to be a general election, and the reason why Keir Starmer's and Jeremy Corbyn's position is right, is because the most likely outcome is going to be a general election, because we cannot, probably, have a people's vote before we actually come out of the EU, because, in order to introduce legislation, the time for that legislation to go through—. If Theresa May were to have to introduce legislation for a referendum now, that would be, effectively, a vote of no confidence and we would have a general election. And I think the position that has been adopted by Keir Starmer, and I think the position adopted by Jeremy Corbyn, is absolutely right. It has given the Tories the right to negotiate. They have failed in those negotiations, that is quite clear, and, ultimately, there is a need to have a new mandate. As Jeremy Corbyn said at the Labour Party conference:
'We will vote against any reduction in rights, standards or protections and oppose a deregulatory race-to-the-bottom.'
So, let me say to the country: Labour will vote against the Chequers plan—as, apparently, I think, half the Tory party conference is going to vote against it anyway—and whatever is left of it, and oppose leaving the EU with no deal. It is inconceivable that we should crash out of Europe with no deal. That would be a national disaster. That is why, if Parliament votes down a Tory deal, or the Government fails to reach any deal at all, we would press for a general election. Failing that, all options are on the table. The likely outcome is a general election. The likely outcome of that general election is that Labour will win, that Labour will either negotiate on the six principles—and, failing that, there will be a referendum for people to actually decide whether they want to stay in the EU or whether they want to leave the EU again.