8. Plaid Cymru Debate: People's Vote

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 5:37 pm on 3 October 2018.

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Photo of Carwyn Jones Carwyn Jones Labour 5:37, 3 October 2018

The point is this, isn't it? On the Brexiteers' side, repeated claims were made that everything would be fine, there would be a free trade deal and there wouldn't be a 'no deal'. Well, that was just wrong, wasn't it? We all see that. Nobody said two years ago—no-one in UKIP; Nigel Farrage didn't say it; the Brexiteers on the Conservative side didn't say it; the Brexiteers on my own side didn't say it, in my own party—no-one said, 'Well, if we crash out, there'll be a "no deal" and it doesn't matter.' It was always about a free trade agreement, and Norway was the example that was given. There are people in this Chamber, actually, who said that Norway was the example that the UK should follow. I think there's merit in that, although the model isn't exactly right as far as we are concerned. The reality is that the EU is a political project, but then so is the UK. Every nation state, every sovereign state, is a political project and we have to bear that in mind.

But I want to turn, if I could, my attention to an issue that I first raised in this Chamber years ago—one that is trying to be dismissed, but is, in fact, at the very heart of Brexit and the Brexit negotiations, and that's the situation in Ireland. In 1995, the end of the Troubles was being seen by people there. When the Good Friday agreement was signed in 1998, it brought to an end not 25 years of trouble, not 100 years of trouble, but 300 years of on and off war. That's what it brought to an end. People were told, 'You will be able, now, to share an identity; the border will be porous and it won't make a difference anymore, because we're all part of the EU.' That, now, is in grave danger. And yet the response of Brexiteers is to say—Jacob Rees-Mogg has said it; Boris Johnson has said it—that it doesn't matter; that, somehow, it is the tail wagging the dog. Well, in reality, it is absolutely crucial. Because, let me tell Members—and I'll tell Neil Hamilton this—more than 3,000 people died between 1969 and 1994. People on both sides were killed because of their religion. You could not walk the streets in certain parts of the city without putting your life in danger. A helicopter was in the air all day. When you crossed the border, you went through a security point. There were roadblocks all around the city of Belfast. The situation in Northern Ireland was dire: people were killed who were driving taxis because they drove for the wrong firm; people were killed when bombs were placed, as we know, at Enniskillen; people were killed in pubs because they happened to be the wrong religion in the wrong pub. And here we have people saying, 'It doesn't matter; it doesn't matter.' Say that to my wife's family. And you say that to the people of Northern Ireland who went through all that mayhem for many, many years, and say to them, 'It doesn't matter about Northern Ireland'.

Because, remember, the UK is not even 100 years old—not even 100 years old. The UK only came into existence when the Irish Free State was set up under its current borders. I say to Members in this Chamber now: I have seen what conflict looks like in Northern Ireland, and I have seen what peace brings. I saw the prosperity that peace brought. I saw the barriers coming down. I saw people being able to walk the streets without fear of being kidnapped or murdered. We play around with that peace agreement at our peril; it is not something that you play games with, and it is not something that can be dismissed as a result of the Brexit negotiations. Brexit has to take into account that there exists on the island of Ireland a border that's been fought over, where people have died, and a border that in 1998 was an issue that was settled with a peaceful outcome. That is now under threat.

So, yes, there are arguments in this Chamber that have been rehearsed many times before. I'm not seeking to rehearse them and I'm not seeking to say, 'Well, you know, the result was wrong two years ago', because those arguments have already been made, but we do not play with people's lives, and we do not ignore the fact that peace was brought to the island of Ireland because—true—of the efforts of the UK and Irish Governments, but because of the efforts of the EU as well.

With the stakes being so high, I can't see what objection anybody would surely have that, if the political process fails, if Parliament can't agree, if there's an election and there's an inconclusive result, the people are then asked the question, 'What do you now think? You know what the circumstances are, you know what the stakes are—what do you want to do?' And that's democracy.