I'm talking about a system and a structure of secure estate, and I'm asking the question: does that serve Wales's interests? And I think you would be very hard pressed to find the answer 'yes' in examining that.

And if you do look at the secure estate we have here in south Wales, along the M4 corridor, I want to see significant investment in that secure estate. If you walk into either Swansea or Cardiff, you will see conditions that I do not believe we want to see in this country today. I believe that we should be investing in a secure estate that respects human beings, that respects the need to hold people in custody, but also has a very clear focus on the community and on rehabilitation. I hope that all sides of this Chamber will agree that what we need is a secure estate in Wales that is modern, that is up to date, that serves the needs of the community as a whole. And we will see as well, if you look at the youth offending institution we have in Park—an institution for young offenders in the centre of an adult prison—that that is not the sort of facility that we require and we need if we're serious about seeing prison as not only a punitive process, but a means of intervention and rehabilitation as well. And this is why there is no UK solution to this and why I invite Members to vote against amendment 2 to this motion: because we need a holistic and coherent structure to justice policy in Wales.

I have already argued, Deputy Presiding Officer, from this place, that the Welsh Government wants to see the devolution of policing to Wales to ensure that policing, alongside all other public services, are managed as a single, coherent system, and the Welsh Government will continue to make that case, but we also need to have a prison and a penal policy that meets the needs of Wales and is coherent with other services. When I look at the system, when I visit prisons, when I speak to prisoners, when I speak to families and when I speak to those people working in the system, I speak all too often to people who have been failed by that system, whether they are being held in custody or whether they are the people holding those people in custody. I have spoken to too many people working in the system who go into work day in, day out knowing that the system itself does not deliver for the people who are being held in custody on the secure estate in Wales. That is unacceptable. It is unacceptable today and we cannot, as a Government and as a National Assembly, as a Parliament for this country, stand back and simply say, 'That is not our responsibility.' I believe we need to argue for a different policy and a different approach.

Deputy Presiding Officer, I am looking, at the moment, at how we work with the prison and probation service. I have tabled a debate in Government time in two weeks' time for us to discuss the future of the probation service. I've been working with the Ministry of Justice and with the prison and probation service in order to deliver a blueprint for female offenders and for youth offending in Wales. In due course, I will ask the National Assembly to endorse that policy and that approach. But all too often, at the moment, we find ourselves in a situation whereby neither the United Kingdom Government nor the Welsh Government is able to deliver a coherent approach to policy and a coherent and holistic approach to dealing with people who are in the criminal justice system. The report of the Wales Governance Centre provides us with a snapshot with the understanding of that. It is our role, as the elected representatives of the people of Wales, to articulate a way forward. Thank you.