The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Darren Millar, and amendments 2 and 3 in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth.

We turn now to item 7, which is a debate on probation service reform. I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies.

Motion NDM6831 Julie James

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes proposals for Probation Services Reform in Wales.

Motion moved.

Thank you very much, acting Presiding Officer. Shall I start by saying that Government will accept all three amendments to this motion this afternoon?

In terms of approaching the reform of the probation service, there are some very significant, philosophical differences between ourselves and the United Kingdom Government on this matter. I start, and we start, from first principles that we want to see the probation service as a world-class rehabilitation service investing in people and investing in communities. We want to see rehabilitation to be at the heart of the probation service.

A recent Ministry of Justice consultation document, 'Strengthening probation, building confidence', has been welcomed by this Government, because we do believe, notwithstanding some of the differences in our basic approach to probation, that this consultation document provides the basis for us to move forward with probation in Wales. The consultation gives us a real opportunity to do things that are rooted in our experience in Wales and rooted in our ambitions for Wales as well. I believe that the consultation proposals do provide us with an opportunity to design a better probation service that is fit for purpose.

I was very pleased, and I think Members across the whole Chamber will welcome the recognition from the Ministry of Justice that Wales is in a distinct position, that simply trying to shoehorn the English proposals into Wales would not work, and I think all of us will welcome the recognition that this is no longer possible. I believe that this is the first step on the route to bringing a probation to Wales that delivers coherence and a holistic service for Wales.

The proposals that we are discussing include: integrating the offender management function of the community rehabilitation companies into the National Probation Service, to create a single probation system in Wales; closer alignment of both these structures and a stronger role for local partners in shaping probation services; opportunities for joint commissioning with both the Welsh Government and police and crime commissioners; and the opportunity to achieve increased integration across prisons and probation. We recognise that the intervention and resettlement services will be open to competition. Welsh Government, of course, would prefer these matters to be within the public service, but we recognise that this is a difference between us and the United Kingdom Government. 

Acting Presiding Officer, in my time in this role, I have sought to create a close working relationship between Welsh Government, the Ministry of Justice and Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service. Members will be aware that devolution of the criminal justice system is the objective of this Government—not because of dogma, but because we want to see good services being delivered to some of the most vulnerable people in our communities. And we believe that working together to deliver these services in a way that unites people and organisations is a better way of delivering these. All too often, we have found ourselves in the position in recent years where neither the Welsh Government nor the United Kingdom Government has been able to deliver all of its policies in probation and elsewhere in the criminal justice system. This is a consequence of a broken settlement that does not deliver for Wales. So, we have sought to create a close working relationship with the UK Government to ensure that, notwithstanding the difficulties of a settlement, we are able to look towards creating structures that do deliver the services that we believe we require. 

We welcome the fact that the United Kingdom Government has recognised the failures of the decision to privatise the probation service, separating the national probation service and the community rehabilitation companies here in Wales. We saw the report last year from the chief inspector of Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Probation, Dame Glenys Stacey, which expressed deep concern over failures of privatisation and the chaos that existed in the system. 

I meet with the chief inspector annually and these concerns were well expressed during our last meeting. This was followed only last month by another report expressing grave concerns over the safety of victims of domestic abuse because of a failure of those private companies to protect those victims from those abusers. 

I have sought to meet Ministers in the United Kingdom Government in the Ministry of Justice on a regular basis to debate and discuss how we can deliver a more coherent service in Wales. Many of the services that are required to manage offenders, ex-offenders and promote rehabilitation are already devolved. Health and social services, education, housing and accommodation are vital to deliver a strong and successful probation service. We need to ensure that all of these services are able to work together.

Any redesigned probation service must take account of and acknowledge and work with existing Welsh Government-funded provision. This is the only way we can ensure good care and avoid replicating provision. Welsh Government policy colleagues must be engaged from the outset in future development, design and governance arrangements to ensure proper alignment of interventions to enable the delivery of desired outcomes. It is no longer possible and it is no longer acceptable for Welsh Government to be informed of the outcome of these discussions at the end of this process. In the future, the Welsh Government must be fully involved at the beginning of the process of designing these services. 

This consultation provides us with an opportunity to revisit the national pathway programme and potentially re-examine the whole of the 'through the gate' service in Wales to allow for differences in services both voluntary and statutory. This 'through the gate' support is critical and needs to be a properly co-ordinated service that responds to the individual needs of offenders leaving institutions. Let me say this: I am not sure that we always do get it right today. I believe that we need to recognise that, in delivering these services, we need ourselves to look at the coherence with which we approach delivering these services to vulnerable people. It is essential that we get this right, particularly the sharing of assessment information undertaken whilst in custody across the various agencies involved to ensure that here are no delays or duplication.

There must also be stronger and better communication between all the various services to ensure that, irrespective of sentence duration, no person leaves custody without knowing where they will be accommodated on their first night following release. Acting Presiding Officer, I have heard too many stories of people who have been released not knowing where they are to go, with little or no support, not even knowing where they will spend their first night out of prison. It is unacceptable; it cannot happen. Only through coherence, through integration and a holistic approach to policy can we ensure that people do have the support that they require. 

We also know that women tend to receive shorter sentences than men. A resettlement plan for women needs to be in effect and in place very quickly post sentencing. We need to take the opportunity provided as a consequence of this consultation process to ensure that all people leaving prison are fully prepared for release and assured what the next steps will be. We need to ensure that people who are due to leave the secure estate are fully supported. 

It is also essential that all offenders in prison should be encouraged to take on new skills and enhance their existing interests and capabilities in order to identify appropriate and relevant meaningful activity whilst in custody that could be utilised to improve their employability potential upon release. Work has already begun, with the publication of a framework to support positive change for those at risk of offending in Wales, which we have already published earlier this year.

Will the Minister take an intervention?

Yes, of course.

Sorry—Cabinet Secretary. Just on your last point there regarding encouraging offenders to take up skills that will help them after prison, I recently attended a Careers Wales event in co-ordination with Prescoed prison, which was to have a careers fair actually within the prison within the last months of the offenders' sentences, so that once they came out of prison they would have jobs to go to. I'm not sure whether you're going to mention that within your speech, but I think that's something that really should be highlighted as an excellent example of how the situation can be improved.

I wasn't going to mention that, but I'm glad that you have done so. It is important to look towards how we work creatively to ensure that we do have the structures in place to enable people who, upon their release from a secure estate, are then able to seek and find employment.

The frameworks that we've published promote continued collaboration to further reduce the number of offenders entering the criminal justice system, support offenders not to reoffend, and to keep communities safe. The frameworks' priorities are to reduce the number of women in the criminal justice system; to challenge domestic abuse perpetrators, holding them to account for their actions; improving provision for ex-armed services personnel engaged in and with the criminal justice system; providing support for young adult care leavers; supporting offenders' families following sentencing; prioritising the needs of black, Asian and minority ethnic groups; and supporting the high risk of reoffending cohort. Given the more complex circumstances surrounding female offending, I believe that we do need to explore a very different provision for female offenders. Acting Presiding Officer, I do hope that we will be able to publish a female offending blueprint, currently being developed between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Prison and Probation Service, which will explore options around a whole-system approach to women entering the criminal justice system.

In accordance with the findings of the Farmer review, 'The Importance of Strengthening Prisoners' Family Ties to Prevent Reoffending and Reduce Intergenerational Crime', further consideration should be given to simplifying the ability for those in custody to maintain family contact wherever possible and when appropriate. I have met with Lord Farmer to discuss his review and the findings of his review. It will inform our own policy making in the future. I visited Parc prison to see at first hand the importance of family contact and the rehabilitative effect it can have on offenders. Following the initial publication of Lord Farmer's findings in August of last year, I await the outcomes of his further work in this area, extending his research to the female estate and the experience of women who have been in the secure estate. This, in turn, will influence the emerging blueprint and I hope that it will also be considered in the ongoing development of our youth justice blueprint. 

We must now look at the way in which community rehabilitation contracts are ended in Wales and ensure a smooth transition to the new ways of working. It is essential that we work with key partners across Wales to get the best possible outcomes. I look forward to listening to Members' views on all of these issues in the debate this afternoon. Acting Presiding Officer, it is the intention of the Welsh Government to continue to develop policy in this area, to continue to drive change in this area, and to continue to ensure that we provide support for the most vulnerable people in our communities in the way that they need it at the time that they need that support.

Thank you very much, Cabinet Secretary. The Presiding Officer has selected the three amendments to the motion and I call on Mark Isherwood to move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Darren Millar.

Amendment 1—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes that the HM Prisons and Probation Service in Wales will build upon the unique arrangements that it already has in Wales through its established prisons and probation directorate, to better reflect the devolved responsibilities of the Welsh Government and build on existing local partnerships.

Amendment 1 moved.

Diolch. On 21 August, I attended the stakeholder engagement event in Wrexham, held by HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales to discuss future probation services in Wales and the proposals contained in the recently published 'Strengthening probation, building confidence' consultation paper. We heard that:

'In Wales, the proposals consulted on are that, from 2020 all offender management services will sit within the National Probation Service—and that HM Prison and Probation Service in Wales will explore options for the commissioning of rehabilitative services, such as interventions and community payback.'

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

They told us that they will build upon the unique arrangements they already have in Wales through their established prisons and probation directorate. As they stated, this will better reflect the devolved responsibilities of the Welsh Government and build on existing local partnerships that probation services have successfully developed. I therefore move our amendment 1 to this effect.

As we heard, these proposals will allow increasing integration across prisons and probation in Wales 'preventing victims by changing lives', as they said, with real input from the third sector, utilising people capital. Following this, I am, for example, taking the National Probation Service in Wales to meet Eagle House Youth Development Community Interest Company in Bangor next Friday to discuss the latter's work with young people involved with or at risk of committing crime. Eagle House has already built a strong working relationship with job centres in north Wales.

As the Lord Chancellor states in the 'Strengthening probation, building confidence' consultation,

'we know that community sentences are often more effective than prison in reducing reoffending', adding that:

'Transforming rehabilitation opened up the delivery of probation services to a broader range of providers and created the structure that we see today.'

He said:

'There's strength in this mixed market approach, with scope for a range of providers, including the voluntary sector, to continue to bring fresh, innovative ideas to probation services', adding:

'We have already seen a reduction of two percentage points in the reoffending rates of individuals supervised by Community Rehabilitation Companies (CRCs), and some positive examples of good joint-working between the National Probation Service, CRCs and their local partners.'

He said:

'While difficulties were to be expected in such a significant and complex programme of reform', he wanted to address these issues sooner rather than later. So, he said, this consultation outlines how they plan to stabilise probation services and improve offender supervision and 'through the gate' services. It also sets out how they will use the lessons they've learnt so far to put in place more effective services and a robust commercial framework. 

The consultation also notes

'the devolved responsibilities of the Welsh Government and existing partnership arrangements in Wales', and they say these

'make the delivery of probation services quite different to that in England.'

He said:

'The legislative framework provides us with scope to develop alternative delivery arrangements which better reflect the criminal justice context in Wales.'

They will therefore

'consider whether the learning from these new arrangements is applicable to the system in England'.

So, they're not separating. They're going to learn from Wales and hopefully develop that elsewhere. Wrexham’s Labour MP, Ian Lucas, also attended the Wrexham event. Like me, he understands that devolution of criminal justice would be damaging, running counter to cross-border reality. He also reminded me that Delyn’s Labour MP, David Hanson, shares his concerns.

Calls for the devolution of criminal justice to Wales fail to recognise that criminal activity does not recognise national or regional boundaries, that over 1.4 million people in Wales, 48 per cent of the population, live within 25 miles of the border with England, and 2.7 million people, 90 per cent of the population, within 50 miles of the border. In contrast, only 5 per cent of the combined population of Scotland and England lives within 50 miles of their border. Most people in Wales live along the M4 and A55 corridors, separated by a vast rural area, and different criminal justice requirements. As my early working contacts in criminal justice in north Wales repeatedly remind me, they've a closer affiliation with north-west England than the rest of Wales, and to force devolution

'to satisfy the egos of certain Politicians should be carefully monitored'.

[Interruption.] Yes, by all means.

You've got 15 seconds.

I thank the Member for giving way. Does he think that the decimation of the probation service that has happened would have occurred if it had been devolved to Wales?

I think there would have been a decimation, but it would be decimation by bureaucratic control rather than imaginative evolution of services, because we must co-produce together. The state is not very good, except in terms of NHS, at running services. Its job there is to make sure they're delivered.

Operational reality is instead reflected—

So, are you going to wind up now, then, please?

Operational reality is instead therefore reflected by the increased operational collaboration seen with Merseyside and Cheshire police, reported by North Wales Police in areas such as firearms, intelligence, custody, property and forensics.

To devolve criminal justice otherwise would be to pursue political goals, dismembering the UK, from certain people over there, or a political grab for power from a group of people whose creeping and often intimidatory politicisation of devolved public services must be a warning to us all. 

Thank you. Can I now call on Leanne Wood to move amendments 2 and 3 tabled in the name of Rhun ap Iorwerth? Leanne.

Amendment 2—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Agrees with the National Association of Probation Officers that the privatisation of probation services has been a failure.

Amendment 3—Rhun ap Iorwerth

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls for the devolution of criminal justice to Wales in order to create a publicly run probation service which serves the interests of our communities.

Amendments 2 and 3 moved.

Diolch. I'd like to begin my contribution by stating once again that what has happened to the probation service, a service that I worked in for many years, has been heartbreaking to witness. It has been ripped apart by the Tories' ideological privatisation of the service and it's an unmitigated disaster. It's demoralised hard-working, experienced probation staff, resulting in many leaving in their droves. It's also diminished the service's ability to monitor offenders, thus reducing public safety. 

There have been a number of cases where offender monitoring has not been adequate, and this has resulted in tragic consequences. I'm sure I don't need to mention the case of Conner Marshall here. There are many others, too. Privatisation has been an expensive gamble that has backfired, as the Tories were warned that it would. 

Now, I agree completely with NAPO Cymru, who say that:

'Attempts to shoe-horn Probation into a market driven model are tortuous, have failed, and will fail.'

I also agree with the Howard League for Penal Reform, who say,

'Commissioning arrangements should be based on cooperation and joint purpose rather than competition. '

The introduction of a profit element into the management of offender risk is obscene, and it should never have been considered in the first place. 

So, that's the past: what about the future? I agree with the decision to reunite offender management back into the public sector here in Wales. This will go some way to address the damage that has been done. While the changes implemented by the Tories can't be completely reversed, there is potential to reimagine a service that will help people get their lives back on track and to reduce their reoffending. I would, however, urge a note of caution and say that care needs to be given as to how further reorganisation is handled. Probation staff have been treated appallingly in recent years. Many people feel as though they've been taken for granted within that system. Further reorganisation, even when carried out with the best intentions for the best possible outcome, must be done in meaningful consultation with staff. Work with them, not against them. We can't afford to further demoralise staff, nor can we afford to lose even more expertise from the service. 

Now I'm sure I won't surprise anyone here by speaking in favour of the devolution of the criminal justice system. I wrote a policy paper back in 2008, it was called 'Making Our Communities Safer', and that recommended devolving the criminal justice system to Wales. Had we done that then, we might well have avoided that disaster that has become probation privatisation. At that time, that paper was seen as a radical document. Then, of course, powers over policing and criminal justice were vociferously opposed by many on the Labour benches, so it's positive to see that, in the intervening years, so many people have now changed their mind. 

When we consider the effects of Westminster cuts to policing, as well as the disaster that has been this probation service privatisation, for me, the case makes itself. Ten years ago, I argued that a devolved criminal justice system would allow Wales to take a different approach to the administration of justice. It would allow us the space to craft Welsh solutions to Welsh problems and make our communities and wider society a safer and fairer place for all of us. My view has not changed in the intervening decade and I'm pleased to see that there has been growing support for this to happen, not just from across this Siambr, but also from right across civic society, too. 

The Tories' approach to justice is punitive, it's unfair, and it's focused on generating private profit from criminalisation and human suffering. Their system is failing our communities. Devolving responsibility for criminal justice would allow us to take this out of the Tories' hands for good. It would allow us to forge our own path in Wales to create a fairer system that could be an example of securing real and fair justice to people in other countries as well. 

I very much agree with what Leanne Wood has just stated, Dirprwy Lywydd. I think that the criminal justice system in the UK is nothing short of disastrous and horrific. It's inhumane, it's unproductive, it creates a lot of damage for our communities, and it needs to change. So, the more power we can draw down to Wales to have a much more enlightened and effective system, the better, and the sooner that it happens, the better. 

In terms of the probation system, yes, privatisation has been shambolic and very damaging as part of that overall picture that we see, and have seen in recent times. So, it's good to hear that there is some progress with the Ministry of Justice, as described by the Cabinet Secretary, and there is now more recognition of the particular circumstances in Wales and of devolution. 

We know that many people who are in our prisons shouldn't be there; they have mental health issues, they have drug and alcohol problems, they have very low educational attainment and very low skills. All those problems have to be dealt with, and will only be dealt with in Wales if there's effective joining up with devolved services. Again, it was good to hear the Cabinet Secretary state that we are now on that path—

Will you take an intervention? 

—much more effectively than we have been hitherto. Yes. 

Diolch. Back in 2014-15, we had a new Governemnt of Wales Act, and we missed the opportunity there to devolve the probation service. Do you regret that your Government didn't push for it at that time? 

Well, you know, I think we can look back and see history through different eyes, and not always understand the obstacles that might have been in the way of a particular route that we might have liked to have seen. So, without getting into a tortuous explanation of where we were and where we are now—

Go on, John. [Laughter.] 

It is complicated. But what we know now is that we are seeing real progress, again, as the Cabinet Secretary has briefly outlined, and what we need to do is to strengthen that, I think, and quicken the pace. 

I would just like to say a little bit, Dirprwy Lywydd, in terms of the issues around homelessness and making sure that when people are released from custody, they do know where they're going to be spending the night. As the Cabinet Secretary rightly said earlier, this isn't always the case. It's pretty obvious, isn't it, that if people are not being released into secure and adequate accommodation, they might quickly fall into reoffending. What we're about and should be about is preventing that. 

The report that the committee that I chair, the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee report, 'Life on the streets: preventing and tackling rough sleeping in Wales', made some pertinent recommendations. One was about giving automatic priority need to prison leavers, if we do not, in fact, abolish priority need altogether. And the other one was about re-establishing that prisoner accommodation and resettlement working group, and making sure that the national pathway—again, referred to by the Cabinet Secretary—works as well as it possibly can. So, the Government response set out further work that was taking place and further research. I don't necessarily expect the Cabinet Secretary to have all the answers here today as to where we are with that work at the current time, Dirprwy Lywydd. But I would appreciate, as quickly as possible, perhaps in consultation with colleagues, hearing what has happened and what stage that process is at the current time, because I do think it's very, very important as one part of the overall picture that prison leavers—particularly, I know there are challenges for those serving short sentences—but all prison leavers have secure, adequate accommodation, and, of course, the services that can go around that, in place as soon as they come out of prison. 

Thanks to the Minister for bringing today's debate. The Minister, when he gave us his contribution—it was very interesting. The onus was very much on rehabilitation and, of course, a meaningful rehabilitation system is very necessary. Of course, it doesn't work for all offenders, but we have to put in place the infrastructure so that we can give people the opportunity to rehabilitate themselves as well, as quickly and as efficiently as possible, so they can reintegrate into society. I think that many, many different things are part of this rehabilitation. John Griffiths was also trying to link the different things together—housing issues, which were mentioned. Of course, we did have the inquiry on the local government committee into homelessness, and there was a difficulty with, particularly, short sentences, because we did speak to someone who was homeless, who'd recently been released from prison, and he gave us some insight into this. It does seem that this is a real issue, because housing and probation officers often don't have time to set up a resettlement programme, when prisoners are given short sentences. The system in that respect isn't very joined up, so we have to look at how that can be improved.

The Minister also mentioned skills, and that's also an important part of rehabilitation. Nick Ramsay gave his example of the careers fair at Prescoed, which I think is an example of good practice. Of course, I've been to careers fairs—not as an offender, I should point out—but I've been to careers fairs. Careers fairs in themselves may not achieve a lot; it depends what flows from that. But I think the idea of having a careers fair in a prison sounds like a good innovation.

Turning to the actual motion—

Will you take an intervention?

Of course, yes.

I raised that example earlier because I did go back and find out afterwards that there was success. I believe 85 per cent or 90 per cent of the ex-offenders who did attend that fair have now got placements after prison—and not just placements, but they've got well-paid placements.

That's very encouraging, and thanks for enlightening us. I hope that system can be rolled out further across the prison system in Wales.

In UKIP, we support some things that the Government is saying, like the privatisation of the probation service isn't really a principle that we necessarily agree with, and we don't think, looking at it, that it looks to have been much of a success. So, we would tend to support what Plaid Cymru has said there in amendment 2. But, on the other hand, we aren't really greatly enthused by the idea of a separate criminal justice system for Wales. Mark Isherwood, again, as he did in the debate we had here—I don't know if it was last week or the week before, but it was certainly recently—has raised issues that certainly make that a contentious premise, one of the issues being that many Labour MPs don't support this. So, this seems to be another issue where Labour in Cardiff Bay and Labour in Westminster seem to be saying different things, which probably won't lead to a very coherent outcome, which is what you're professing to be after today, but, diolch yn fawr.

I'm very pleased to speak in this important debate. I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement, and I certainly support the direction that he is laying out. I particularly welcome his comments about a different way of approaching women in the criminal justice system and I look forward to seeing the blueprint that the Government will be setting out, because I think it's generally much more recognised now—the drastic consequences of imprisoning women and that the number of women who actually go to prison, who need to be separated from the public because of any element of danger, is minute. I'm so glad that there is now, at last, a move from the UK Government that does seem to be recognising that this is counterproductive—what they're doing. So, I think that, at long last, there's a move from the UK Government and I'm very pleased now that we can work more positively with them in Wales.

In my working life, before I worked as a politician, I was a social worker and worked very closely with the probation service. I am really tragedy-struck about what has happened to the probation service, because it was a first-class service. It was outstanding—the work that they did with offenders, working on prevention and working with offenders when they left prison. I just think what's happened to it is absolutely awful. As I think Leanne said in her contribution, and as Napo say, it did put the public at risk, what they did, and it's very difficult, I think, for us to rebuild from that position, because I do know how demoralised the probation service are. When the split in the probation service happened in Wales, you had probation officers sitting in one office and they were employed by two different people with two different systems operating. We had probation officers coming here into the Senedd explaining how this system was working and saying how they felt completely demoralised, and it's that sort of situation that we have to recover from. 

When the document says that the probation service needs strengthening, it needs to really be absolutely rebuilt again. But I do recognise the points that Leanne made about how they have been through so much that really a wholescale change is very difficult to contemplate and has to be done in a very, very sensitive way. I'd like to pay tribute to the probation officers who have really struggled heroically to provide good services in an impossible regime. The community rehabilitation companies that were set up across the UK—and, of course, in Wales it was Working Links that managed that part of the service, and they came actually to meet us here in the Assembly at the beginning and tried to convince us that they were going to have this huge new approach and be so successful, and we all felt very sceptical and it's turned out exactly as we thought. It's turned out as a disaster.

I think these attempts to push the probation service into a market-driven model have been absolutely tortuous and completely unsuitable for a public service of this nature. So, I do hope that we will be able to ensure that there is a more cohesive probation service. It would be good to think that everybody came back together in Wales under one roof, working with the third sector, with the voluntary bodies, and with a productive partnership arrangement so that we could ensure that some of the most vulnerable people in our society, who are those in prisons, are helped and supported, as well as doing their time for what they've done, with the fact that they are given support so they don't go on to offend again. 

I think the prison service and what happens to offenders is absolutely vital to all of us, and I think it is a sign of what sort of society we are—how we actually treat our prisoners and how we are going to make sure that they are able to contribute in the future to our society, which we know can be done if that input is there and if that support is there, as the probation service used to be able to do. I hope, under the Minister's plans, that we will have a thriving probation service here in Wales again.

I'd like to thank the Cabinet Secretary for his statement. The probation service is a vital part of the criminal justice system and is likely to become even more important in future as our prisons become increasingly overcrowded. Welsh prisons are operating well beyond capacity, leading to severe overcrowding, which is detrimental to both prisoners and those who look after them—the prison officers. Prison can work, but it only works with proper rehabilitation, and the present overcrowding hampers the ability of prison staff to rehabilitate their charges effectively. As well as building new prisons to replace our archaic and crumbling Victorian prisons, we also have to ensure that rehabilitation continues when an offender leaves the prison gates and that there is a suitable mechanism for dealing with low-risk offenders for whom prison is not the answer. The probation service should be that mechanism. But, unfortunately, Chris Grayling's botched attempts to reform have turned the probation service into a national embarrassment. I would like to see the devolution of the criminal justice system. Our prisons are overflowing with people who should not be there: those suffering from mental ill health, veterans suffering from PTSD who have been abandoned by the system, and those who are desperately in need of shelter. All these people have been let down by a failing probation service. The National Audit Office found serious failings in the way that the UK Government opened up the probation service to private companies and the third sector. The NAO's report on transforming rehabilitation highlighted severe failures in monitoring the community rehabilitation companies, which meant that the Ministry of Justice had no way of knowing how the CRCs were performing.

CRCs are responsible for 80 per cent of the probation service's work, yet many fail to provide any performance data, cherry-picked which offenders they would monitor, and were paid regardless of whether they actually reduced reoffending. The Grayling reforms were also highly criticised by the Commons Justice Committee, which concluded that it was unlikely that the reforms could ever deliver an effective probation service. It is therefore unsurprising that the current Secretary of State for Justice has decided to reform the probation service.

I welcome the fact that reforms are to be phased in by 2020. As the National Audit Office highlighted, the rushed nature of the earlier reforms had a huge impact on the service, putting strain on staff, seeing inadequate IT provisions, and cutting corners. The private companies playing a role in offender rehabilitation and monitoring need to be properly managed and deliver results, not just profits. It has to be properly resourced for the benefit and safety of all. I would also like to see greater involvement of the voluntary sector.

The decision of the MOJ  to combine the functions of the National Probation Service and the CRCs into a single organisation for Welsh offenders has merit, and I look forward to seeing how this will operate. One of the major criticisms of the NPS and CRCs was that they failed to secure housing for ex-offenders when they leave prison, which can often lead to reoffending. When I served in the prison service, we saw many young people who reoffended just to have a roof over their head and regular meals, and this is shameful. If we can ensure that the new probation service for Wales truly integrates with the public sector, truly involves the voluntary sector, and is truly and properly resourced, then the outlook for reoffending rates in Wales is good. I hope the Welsh Government and the UK Government will work closely together to ensure that we have a probation service that really works for Wales.

Thank you. I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services to reply to the debate—Alun Davies.

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm grateful to Members on all sides of the Chamber for their contributions to what has been, I think, a very good and thoughtful debate this afternoon. In terms of taking this forward, I also welcome the very broad consensus of view that we just heard expressed by Caroline Jones, but that we also heard powerfully expressed by Members on different sides of the Chamber. I think Julie Morgan spoke for all of us when she described the failure of the privatisation, echoing the words of John Griffiths and Leanne Wood, speaking from their own experience of a criminal justice system that is simply failing the most vulnerable people in our society.

I think it's absolutely essential—. The points made by Leanne Wood in terms of working with staff and not against them must be a part of how we take this forward. I welcome John Griffiths's comments about the progress that we are seeing on this issue. He's absolutely right to argue that the progress has been faster and further than we anticipated, even some months ago, and I think we would all seek to welcome that. The points made by Julie Morgan on the blueprint for female offenders, I think, are extremely well made, and I will be seeking to bring blueprints for female offending and for youth offending to this place and to publish those before Christmas. That's certainly my intention today.

There has been agreement and descriptions of the failures of privatisation. But, for us, we want to go further than simply describing the failures of the past. We want to design a future for everybody. And can I say this in closing, Deputy Presiding Officer? Mark Isherwood is getting there. He's nearly there. I would say to him: do not subcontract your speech writing to Conservative—[Interruption.] I'm going to finish this. Do not subcontract your speech writing and your thinking to Conservative head office: think, look hard—look hard at what you see in front of you. I know that he works hard to maintain contact and to speak with people up and down the region he represents, and he will know from his own experience that there exists across Wales today a broad and settled consensus that policing should be devolved to this place, and, in doing so, criminal justice should also be devolved to enable us to create the holistic system that many people have described.

But let me finish with the points made by Leanne Wood: devolution by itself, for its own purpose, isn't good enough. What we have to recognise is that devolving these responsibilities is the beginning of the job, not the end of it. We devolve those responsibilities in order to create a better service and the opportunities to serve our people better. We don't simply do it because we are driven to that conclusion by a rigid dogma, so we have to get these things right. And I recognise that there are areas at the moment that we don't get right and we need to do better. And it is only by devolving those responsibilities to this place to ensure that we have the scrutiny of this place that we can then pursue those policy objectives and then even Mark Isherwood will agree that we will be serving the most vulnerable people in our society better than we do today.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree amendment 1. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Okay. Therefore we will defer voting on this item until voting time. We are going to move to voting time now, so unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung—. Do three Members wish—? Can I see three Members wishing? Thank you. Therefore, can we ring the bell, please?

The bell was rung to call Members to the Chamber.