Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservatives' spokesperson, Mark Isherwood.

Diolch, Lywydd. Why do you feel that the current local government funding formula is fit for purpose, has the full support of local authorities across Wales and is able to keep pace with changing priorities of local government services?

The formula is owned, if you like, by the partnership council for Wales and is updated regularly by the work of the finance sub-group and the distribution sub-group, upon which the whole of Welsh local government is represented. I don't think that the formula is fixed, if you like; it's constantly being reviewed and it's constantly being amended, year on year on year. The Member will understand that the distribution sub-group produces a report, which is made public, every year, which outlines the work that the distribution sub-group does do, or leads on at least, in order to ensure that amendments are made on an annual basis to the formula. So, I would say to him that I don't believe the formula is fixed in the way that he sometimes describes, but is constantly kept under review and is constantly updated by local government and Welsh Government working together with independent members. 

Thank you. Well, I can note that, following my lead, the Welsh Local Government Association coined a term for you—'Mr Bumble'. And, despite what you and the finance Secretary have claimed about agreement by the WLGA and the finance sub-group, the WLGA's chief executive stated before committee just a few weeks ago that the formula as it currently stands is held together by duct tape and sticking plasters, and that it probably needs a long hard look at it, and he further explained that such a review could take three to five years. Your own colleagues, including the Minister for Environment, recently called for the Welsh Government to undertake a review of the support given to council services. The First Minister met with Labour council leaders about funding, which we believe should have been open to all Welsh council leaders. The Welsh Conservatives have been calling for a review for years, but all the Welsh Government has done is divert the blame to local authorities and tinker around the edges, and, of course, the leader of the Conservative group in the WLGA tells me the standard response is that the WLGA were party to creating the formula. That's true, but it was constructed in partnership with the Welsh Government a long time ago and it's not now fit for purpose.

Will you, therefore, now listen, to this growing chorus of voices from all parties and political persuasions and initiate a review of the formula? If not, please tell those bodies why you still tend to repeat what we've heard from you in your earlier responses.

Almost all the people that you've described—and there are very few people in Wales who have reviewed the formula as hard as the outgoing chief executive of the WLGA; I think he's sat through more meetings on this formula than any Minister has at any time—. Can I say this: the formula is open to review year-on-year-on-year? And it is reviewed year-on-year-on-year, and Conservative leaders take part in that. Now, if they wish to ask for a fundamental root-and-branch review of the sort that you have described, then they are able to do so, except, of course, they do not do that when they are in the meetings having these conversations.

I'm very happy, Presiding Officer, to ensure, and I make an undertaking that, if these minutes are not already in the public domain, I will place them in the library so that Members on all sides of the Chamber can understand the work that is being done by the finance and distribution sub-groups, and to ensure that this information is made publicly available. 

Well, that's a very timely response, because, since you took your post a year ago, you have continually peddled the story that Conservative councillors in Wales are happy with the funding they've received and that they wouldn't want Conservative policies in Wales. You told my colleague, Russell George, last month,

'I tell the Conservative group that their councillors do not want Conservative policies in Wales; they are delighted to have a Welsh Labour Government delivering support and funding to local authorities that Conservative councils in England could only dream of. So, when I meet Conservative councils, what they tell me is that what they need is a Labour Government.'

Something pretty much like what you've already said to us today. So, I put that to the Conservative group leaders across Wales. The first response I got was, 'A bit of a joke.' The second,

'He's demonstrated again and again that he has no real comprehension of the issues we're facing in local government', and then terms like, 'The funding formula is a total disaster, not fit for purpose', and they said your claims were both 'ludicrous' and 'nonsense'. I quote. 

Furthermore, it seems that even Labour councillors have been supportive of some UK Conservative policies, such as tomorrow's democracy event. On Monday, the Labour leader of Newport came out to support the devolving of business rates to local authorities, and revealed that the Labour leadership contender that you endorse is also in favour of devolving business rates to local authorities.

Therefore, will you now stop trying to deflect the serious issues facing local authorities, drop the adversarial position you've built up over the last 12 months, and work with councils of all persuasions, many of which are coalitions, to find a way forward so that their funding is fair, acknowledging that the points I've raised today were not something I plucked out, as you might say, from a party lines-to-take paper, which I rarely ever look at and almost never use. These were given to me first-hand by the persons I quote, either in committee or in response to my requests from the bodies concerned. 

I seem to be being accused of consistency, which is certainly an original allegation to make. Can I say this: I understand that it is the role of the Conservative spokesperson in this place to make the worst possible case for the policies being pursued by this Government and to scrutinise us on the basis of that? But to come here and suggest that any council leader, of any colour, is coming to Welsh Government and saying, 'We want to see the same depth of cuts to local government funding as we've seen across the border' is frankly incredible. And it simply isn't a credible position to take. There is no suggestion that I hear from any local authority leader, of any political background, that they want to see their budgets cut by 26 per cent, which is exactly what's happened across the border, and I don't believe that the Conservative spokesperson does himself any credibility at all in order to try to sustain that argument. The issue that many of those people raise with us is the quantum of funding available—not simply the distribution of it, but the quantum that is available to us. And we know, from the Chancellor's budget last week, that funding on public services is going to be cut in this area time and time again. And perhaps, when the Conservative Government finally abolish the rate support grant in England, he will learn the folly of his position.

The Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Dai Lloyd.

Diolch, Llywydd. Clearly, Cabinet Secretary, you are well read, and a fan of Charles Dickens. So, if local government is Oliver Twist, does that make you Mr Bumble?

I would suspect that the Member opposite represents Harry Secombe in a way that I could only hope to.

Just moving away slightly from any Dickensian wordplay, do you accept that local government has suffered in funding priorities, compared to other portfolios here? 'Hard times; for these times', as Dickens would say.

In terms of where local government is, clearly, we would want—. The Welsh Labour Government is not a Welsh Government that seeks to pursue a policy of austerity; that is not what we seek to do. What we want to be able to do is to fund local government, and other public services, properly, to enable us to deliver the high-quality services that we all want to see. But it is not credible to come to this place and argue that we can increase local government funding whilst not cutting funding elsewhere. And if the Member is arguing that we should change completely the budget, then he's welcome to make that argument, and I look forward to him telling me where he would want to make the cuts.

With the UK budget announcement last week, can local government have 'great expectations', or will they end up with 'little Dorrit'?

I am very impressed with Dr Dai Lloyd's literary knowledge—he puts me in my place. Can I say this: the Cabinet Secretary for Finance will be making a statement on the final budget, and on the consequentials, as a consequence of the budget of the United Kingdom Government? That will be made in due course.

The UKIP spokesperson, Gareth Bennett.

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, Minister. There are some events commemorating Carl Sargeant, your Welsh Government predecessor as the housing Minister. Of course, he did many good things in that field. I've just gone through a file of questions that I asked—[Inaudible.]—and I see that—[Inaudible.]. I was specifically asking on that date about the use of publicly owned land in Wales that might be used for brownfield housing. The Minister stated that his team at housing were in discussions with Ken Skates and his department, looking at what land the Welsh Government owned that might be available for housing development. These discussions also involved the health department. Now, I don't recall any mention of this idea of developing publicly owned land from the Welsh Government since then. This was back in April 2017. So, are you in a position to give any update on this idea for brownfield housing on publicly owned land?

Thank you very much for that question. I can certainly confirm that the Welsh Government, since that time, has been working on the agenda of identifying and freeing up publicly owned land for housing. There is a specific ministerial group that works together, also including my colleagues Lesley Griffiths and Ken Skates, and we work together to identify those parcels of land that Welsh Government owns, but also now we're seeking to look at land that is owned by the public estate much more widely—so, land owned by health boards, for example, local authority land. We've identified three parcels of land thus far that we think will be appropriate for housing, and we look, therefore, to bring those forward as soon as possible. I'd also add that we have the affordable housing group, which has a specific work stream under that which looks at land for housing. 

Before you ask your question, Gareth Bennett, with the exception of the Cabinet Secretary's microphone, no other microphone is currently working. [Laughter.] So, we're not able to resolve that without postponing the session. So, the session is now postponed. 

Plenary was suspended at 14:40. 

The Assembly reconvened at 15:30, with the Llywydd in the Chair.

We may now reconvene our discussions. And, therefore, I call Gareth Bennett. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Good afternoon, again, Minister, and apologies if my first question sounds somewhat familiar, but the record didn't pick it up so I will rehearse it again. We have had some events today commemorating Carl Sargeant, who did much good work as your predecessor as the housing and communities Minister. I've just been looking through the file of questions from when I used to shadow Carl, and I see that 18 months ago, we were discussing various brownfield site initiatives. I was specifically asking about the use of publicly owned land in Wales that might be released for brownfield housing. The Minister stated that his team at housing were in discussions with Ken Skates and his department, looking at what land the Welsh Government owned that might be available for housing development. These discussions also involved the health department at the time. This was in April 2017. I just wondered: are you in a position to give any update from the Welsh Government on this idea of releasing Welsh Government land for brownfield housing? 

Thank you very much for that question, and I can confirm that the work has been continuing since you had those initial discussions. There is a cross-Government group, which includes myself and the Ministers with responsibility for planning, economy and finance, that is looking right across the Welsh Government portfolio to identify parcels of land that we could bring forward for housing. And we're looking at them in a strategic way alongside our other priorities, for example, the proposed metro and so forth. 

That group has identified three parcels of land thus far, although there are several others that we are looking at, and, of course, I recently announced the review of affordable housing, which has a specific sub-group under that, that is looking at land for housing and what more can be done to bring forward land for housing. I should add as well that the ministerial group is not just looking at Welsh Government land; we're looking at land owned by local authorities, health boards, and the public sphere more widely in order to identify those parcels that are strategically important and that haven't yet been brought forward for housing. 

Thanks for the response, and it's encouraging that you are taking on this as an ongoing project, and, also, involving other parts of the public sector. There is also a UK Government scheme, whereby they're getting local councils in England to compile a register of all their available brownfield sites—the idea being that this will make it easier for developers to know what land is available. That idea may well fit into what you're doing, as you just explained. 

But local councils, as we know, are somewhat strapped for cash, both in England and Wales. So, if we followed a similar course here, then funding would presumably have to be released to the councils to allow them to compile those brownfield registers if they are the bodies that are going to be doing the compilation. So, what thoughts do you have on the scheme in England, and how it fits in with your plans in Wales?

Thank you again for that question, and it reminds me of the work we're doing to release stalled sites. So, stalled sites specifically include brownfield sites, which might be infill sites, or windfall sites, for example, and those are well known to the local authorities. Our stalled sites fund is a £40 million fund, which will be recycled over the period of the grant fund to achieve £160 million of investment, and that's informed by some research that was undertaken that demonstrated around 7,600 homes could be built across 400 sites in Wales, were there the opportunity to release those sites because they've been stalled for reasons such as groundworks or infrastructure being prohibitively expensive. So, that fund is there specifically for small and medium-sized builders to access in order to be building on those plots of land that aren't attractive to the volume house builders, but, equally, are important in terms of using sites that perhaps might be eyesores, for example, within local communities. 

Again, you mentioned in your statement a few weeks ago that you saw a big role for small and medium-sized enterprises in providing housing. Of course, they haven't played a major role in the housing sector in Wales in recent years, so I'm glad that you've again mentioned that today. And what you've said in that response was again encouraging. Are there any other specific incentives that you're providing for the SMEs in order to encourage them to participate in the house building schemes?

Yes, we have our £40 million property development fund, which is specifically there—it's a loan fund at an attractive rate for SMEs. It's run through the Wales Development Bank. It was originally a fund of £10 million, but actually the demand was so high for it and it was so popular that we were able to increase the funding available to it. And, again, that's money that will be recycled over the lifetime of that scheme.

I also see a real role for SMEs in terms of helping us meet our decarbonisation ambitions. Lots of SMEs moved out of building houses to move into house repairs, and renovations, and so on, but, actually, in future, I'd like them to be part of the ambitious programme that we're trying to develop, in terms of retrofitting existing homes, and I hope to be able to say more about that in due course.