The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Julie James, and amendment 2 in the name of Neil McEvoy.

We now move on to the Welsh Conservatives' debate on the armed forces, and I call on Mark Isherwood to move the motion. 

Motion NDM6854 Darren Millar

The National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that this year’s Remembrance Sunday marks the 100th anniversary of Armistice Day and the end of the first world war.

2. Welcomes the Royal British Legion’s ‘Thank you 100’, which remembers those who served, sacrificed and changed our world between 1914 and 1918.

3. Honours the contribution of those who have served and continue to serve in our armed forces.

4. Calls upon the Welsh Government to appoint an armed forces commissioner for Wales to ensure that the Armed Forces Covenant is upheld.

Motion moved.

Diolch. Well, this Sunday marks the hundredth anniversary of the signing of the armistice that ended the first world war. On 3 August, with 100 days until this armistice centenary, the Royal British Legion launched a mass movement to say 'thank you' to the first world war generation who served, sacrificed and changed our world, with all communities encouraged to join and hundreds of community events organised. Remember Together, a new initiative from British Future and the Royal British Legion, also launched last week to bring people from different backgrounds together to mark remembrance and the centenary of the first world war armistice. 

There is increasing awareness that remembrance could, should and does belong to all of us, whatever our politics, ethnicity or faith. The armies of 1914-18 looked more like the Britain of 2018 than that of its day. British troops fought alongside soldiers of different colours and creeds from across the Commonwealth, including over 1 million Indian soldiers, 400,000 of them Muslims from present day Pakistan. This shared history of service and contribution is something that we can all commemorate in Britain and the UK.

Our motion calls on the Assembly to honour

'the contribution of those who have served and continue to serve in our armed forces.'

I led a short debate here in January 2008 supporting the Royal British Legion's Honour the Covenant campaign, concluding that this must be fought until it is won. I subsequently welcomed the publication of the armed forces covenant in May 2011, introducing a statutory duty from 2012 to lay before the UK Parliament an annual report that considers the effects of service on regulars and reservists, veterans, their families and the bereaved, and to also examine areas of potential disadvantage and the need for special provision where appropriate.

The Welsh Government and all local authorities in Wales signed the covenant and subscribed to work with partner organisations to uphold its principles. However, there's not yet been an independent review of progress and delivery across the whole of Wales since the covenant was established—or there wasn't until the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets fulfilled the job.   

In our debate on support for the armed forces last year, the Cabinet Secretary said that Members should have no doubt about the importance that this Government attaches to the delivery of the covenant in Wales. However, concerns do remain in regard to its implementation and in ensuring that veterans are aware of this support. 

Last year's review of the implementation of the covenant by the Assembly cross-party group on armed forces and cadets explored how services in Wales were fulfilling their obligations under the armed forces covenant. The group found that, since the introduction of the covenant, there had been good work across Wales in delivering its aims, with public services being more aware. Despite positive developments, however, it found that there is insufficient accountability to ensure that organisations subscribed to the covenant are actually fulfilling their obligations.   

The covenant states that no-one who has served in the armed forces should face disadvantage, and, in specific circumstances, can expect special consideration, in regard to their NHS care. Despite this, however, veterans and their families have faced inconsistencies when accessing healthcare in Wales, with the third and charitable sectors often having to deliver the specialist and rehabilitation services they need.

Adherence to and implementation of the covenant varies greatly across Wales's health boards, as evidenced by the recent information obtained from each health board by the Welsh Conservatives. Only Abertawe Bro Morgannwg had a dedicated budget for veterans. In the last three financial years, £242,000 has been allocated there, but the six remaining health boards only used core allocations to fund veterans' needs. Only Aneurin Bevan, Cardiff and Vale, Powys and Hywel Dda health boards have adopted the Welsh Government 2017 guidance in full and, worryingly, Betsi Cadwaladr stated that it was only adhering to Welsh Government guidance published in 2008, three years before the covenant was published.

Staff training and awareness of the covenant varied greatly across the health boards, with little formal training of its requirements taking place. Medical records teams in Aneurin Bevan and Cardiff and Vale had been trained in priority and fast-track referrals, with Cardiff and Vale currently working with the Ministry of Defence on a training package for primary care. Yet Abertawe Bro Morgannwg had merely circulated protocol guidance, Powys had undergone training and awareness-raising at board level only, and Hywel Dda and Betsi had delivered no formal training. Although the covenant applies to local health board employees, I was concerned when I recently accompanied a health board employee with diagnosed military PTSD to a meeting with his employers, when the health board stated their understanding that the covenant only applied to him as a patient.

I spoke at the 2013 launch of Change Step, a support and peer mentoring service provided by veterans for veterans seeking help for mental health, loneliness or addiction problems, led by north-Wales based charity, CAIS. Change Step has now helped more than 1,700 veterans and their families since its launch, yet its reliance on bid funding presents a long-standing challenge when seeking to provide essential services. The Cabinet Secretary will no doubt tell us about the amount of money given to Veterans' NHS Wales, which provides veterans living in Wales with assessment and psychological treatment for mental health problems, including PTSD. Despite this, Veterans' NHS Wales state that without extra Welsh Government support they will be unable to continue reducing waiting times for treatment. They've told us that they are reducing waiting lists for treatment by employing three full-time veteran therapists with charity money from Help for Heroes, and they've completed the first year of that, but, in September 2020, these posts will go and waiting lists are likely to rise again without an increase in Welsh Government support. Of course, without that increase, there'd be an additional cost burden generated on health and care services and therefore that would be a false economy. Veterans' NHS Wales also state that in Scotland and Northern Ireland large-scale studies on the needs of veterans and ex-forces personnel have been carried out by the Forces in Mind Trust, and are calling for a similar study in Wales to help inform policy and practice.

Housing is key to veterans and their families. First Choice Housing Association led the way on this in Wales and secured funding from the MOD veterans accommodation fund to deliver homes across Wales. Alabaré's Wales Homes for Veterans initiative delivers supported housing for veterans struggling to adjust to the civilian world. Working together, First Choice Housing Association and Alabaré delivered the ambitious self-build project for veterans in Wrexham, the third residence in north Wales to be managed by Wales Home for Veterans, which took the charity's provision across Wales to 57 places.

The Welsh Government has announced a housing referrals pathway for veterans and updated guidance. However, provision of leaflets and advice cards does not address the concerns of how housing officers themselves, who provide the necessary support, are able to manage the complex cases of re-homing veterans. Better integration of housing, health and care services, alongside support for schemes such as those provided by First Choice and Alabaré, is therefore needed from the Welsh Government, especially when there's been a large reduction in the number of veteran households accepted by local authorities as being in priority housing need since the Housing (Wales) Act 2014 was introduced. I can't believe that those figures reflect the true level of need. 

Woody's Lodge is a charity providing safe spaces for armed service veterans, recent leavers, reservists, and those who served in the emergency services, to socialise and access a range of health and social services and to interact with people who've had similar experiences. Following the success of their first established base in south Wales, they're now opening a site at Eirias Park in Colwyn Bay for veterans across north Wales. Alongside Age Cymru and Age Alliance Wales, Woody's Lodge is a partner in Project 360°, funded by the UK Chancellor's aged veterans fund, supporting older veterans across Wales.

Endorsed by the armed forces community and armed service heads, the review by the cross-party group on armed forces and cadets, referred to earlier, found that, in order to uphold the covenant, the Welsh Government should consider the appointment of an armed forces commissioner for Wales to improve the accountability of public sector organisations for the delivery of the armed forces covenant. It said the commissioner should be required to publish an annual report on adherence to the covenant to be laid in this National Assembly for Wales. Whilst welcome, the appointment of covenant-funded armed forces liaison officers across Welsh local authorities does not meet this requirement.

Responding to me yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary side-stepped this by stating instead that it was the role of the National Assembly to ensure accountability of Government. Is he therefore saying that we don't need commissioners in other areas, including children, older people and future generations? Does not their existence prove the principle that, actually, commissioners have a key role to play? One hundred years after the signing of the treaty that led to the end of the first world war, the armed forces covenant is a covenant that must endure. Diolch yn fawr.

Thank you. I have selected the two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services to formally move amendment 1, tabled in the name of Julie James. 

Amendment 1—Julie James

Delete point 4 and replace with:

Welcomes the appointment of the Armed Forces Liaison Officers across Wales and the collaborative approach of the Armed Forces Expert Group in ensuring the Armed Forces Covenant is upheld.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Diolch. I call on Neil McEvoy to move amendment 2, tabled in his name.

Amendment 2—Neil McEvoy

Add as new point at end of motion:

Calls on the Welsh Government to bring about a no soldier left behind Act that would guarantee quality housing and healthcare to veterans who have seen active service.

Amendment 2 moved.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. We don't leave soldiers behind on the battlefields and we shouldn't leave them behind when they come home. My amendment tonight is a simple one to bring about a no-soldier-left-behind Act to guarantee quality housing and healthcare for veterans who have seen active service.

Many soldiers serve and go through trauma. Some are injured and some, unfortunately, do not come back. Those who do, what do they come back to? A lack of healthcare, a lack of mental health provision and a lack of housing. There's a real problem in finding housing. Far too many former soldiers end up on the street. We do have a covenant for the armed forces, but I don't think it's good enough. In fact, I know it's not good enough. We need legislation to prioritise those who have seen active service. Identifying veterans should be the norm in the NHS, and I'm told that it's not far too often. Healthcare professionals should have the training and we should be looking at best practice.

Former soldier Gus Hales is on hunger strike to demand better support for veterans, especially those suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. He said that 56 veterans have committed suicide this year in the UK. He's been on hunger strike for 10 days and he's 62 years of age. How can this man, living in Wales, have slipped through the net? How could it happen?

Norman McGuigan, a veterans campaigner for justice for the armed forces said earlier on the telephone that the covenant is simply not working. It may be slightly better in Wales than in England, but that really is not good enough. We need to bring in a specific no-soldier-left-behind Act to guarantee that, when people's proud military service is over, they have the support and the housing that they need and, more importantly, that they deserve. Wales can lead on this, so let's get it done. Diolch.

I welcome this debate on our armed forces in this important week of national remembrance and I rise to support the Welsh Government's amendment. 

I wish to start on a personal note. I know that the Member for Clwyd West was also a friend and colleague of Carl Sargeant. On the anniversay of Carl's passing, I know that his sincerity and presence lives on with those of us here today who cared for him, but it also lives on in the lasting initiatives and legislation that he drove forward for all of Wales, and I believe that it will continue to blossom for all of Wales. I will, on this matter, quote the Member for Clwyd West who stated that Carl was instrumental in ensuring that some of the significant improvements have been delivered, and one of the most important parts was actually getting the armed forces communities together, particularly the voluntary sector, which has often in the past been splintered and siloed. Carl helped ensure that there is now an armed forces conference each year, helping overcome those obstacles. And Darren also shares the same commitment for our armed forces that Carl always bore so passionately. Having been honoured to recently join the cross-party Assembly group on the armed forces, I look forward to working with you, Darren, on this important field.

So, as we mark the hundredth anniversary of Armistice Day and the end of the first world war, it is right that we join the Royal British Legion's #ThankYou100 campaign, which remembers those who served, who sacrificed and who changed our world between 1914 and 1918. As the Assembly Member for Islwyn, I am also honoured and very proud to stand here today in the Chamber of Wales's National Assembly and give thanks on behalf of our communities and my communities in Islwyn for the heroism shown by our brothers and sisters a century ago. We will remember them.

Although responsibility for the armed forces is, of course, non-devolved, I know that this Welsh Labour Government is extremely proud of the 385,000-strong armed forces community across Wales, and we are highly committed to the principles of the armed forces covenant. As I stated to the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services earlier today and yesterday, I think it is important that we continue to strengthen the veteran unit within Welsh Government and further drill down into assessing any potential gaps in service delivery that need to be addressed. We can and will continue with Carl's legacy in this place, in this regard, and I am both confident and clear that this is the political will and the clear vision of this Welsh Government to ensure that this is a priority.

Llywydd, to conclude, I hope that the Welsh Conservatives, who have brought this motion, will rightly also call on the UK Tory leaders in Government to back our armed forces, because, in July, we learned that armed forces personnel will receive a 2 per cent pay rise. That is below the armed forces pay review body recommendation, and that represents a below-inflation pay offer. In today's climate of insecurity, no wonder that nearly 15,000 people left the armed forces just over the last year alone, whilst the number of people joining the armed forces is vastly decreasing.

I don't believe that this is right, and, in an era of increasing global insecurity, terrorist threat and Brexit security concerns, let us remember all those who served, who are willing to serve and who were willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for our nation—willing to ensure that we continue to live up to their commitment, not just in word and rhetoric, but, as Carl did, through legislative action and initiative, to ensure the safety and security of all in our society. Thank you.

Thank you for the opportunity to commemorate the great war. In 1916, my grandfather was 21, was recently married and was in the Royal Welch Fusiliers in the Somme and in Ypres. My grandfather was a Dolgellau boy and he served alongside boys from Trawsfynydd in the great war. They were together on the battlefield and they communicated through the medium of Welsh on foreign fields, and the death of close friends had a severe impact on them all in the battle, and ripped the hearts out of wives, mothers and rural communities across Wales. It also broke the pacifist traditions of Welsh nonconformity simultaneously. It was boys who rejected conscription on the basis of their faith who were prosecuted and ridiculed, and chapels at the time were full of anguish. It was the farm boys of Meirionnydd who went to war and the boys of the masters were allowed to remain at home. Yes, people do remember.

One day in the heat of battle, a friend of my grandfather was severely injured, shot while fighting next to my grandfather. My grandfather picked him up and carried him on his back and tried to take him to shelter, but another enemy bullet shot his friend from Dolgellau dead whilst on my grandfather's back. My grandfather, surprisingly, survived. But as the battle continued over the bloody fields of Flanders and France, my grandfather was poisoned by the mustard gas. He was among these deadly fumes, and his feet rotted as he stood in the water-filled, blood-filled trenches, facing the remains of bodies on the barbed wire.

Miraculously, my grandfather survived, or I wouldn't be here, but he barely spoke of his horrific experiences and all the suffering. It was a silent remembrance for my grandfather, so different to the fate of Hedd Wyn, the poet of the black chair in the Birkenhead Eisteddfod of 1917. Hedd Wyn, the poet and farmer from Trawsfynydd, won the chair that year at that Eisteddfod, but he had been killed at Pilckem Ridge in the battle of Passchendaele on 31 July 1917—a month before the Eisteddfod, but after he had sent his awdl Yr Arwr into that Eisteddfod. The day of the chairing at the 1917 National Eisteddfod arrived, in September, and David Lloyd George, the British Prime Minister, was in the audience on that day. But despite the name of the poet being called, the chair remained empty and a black cloth was placed over that chair, with tears flowing as everyone learnt of the fate of the winning poet.

Yes, we remember. Hedd Wyn joined the army so that his younger brother could avoid conscription. Today, the home of Hedd Wyn, Yr Ysgwrn in Trawsfynydd, has been restored and stands as it was in 1917 so that we can remember the sacrifice of that young generation. Hedd Wyn, who left a whole host of excellent poetry, was killed at 30 years of age. 

I will conclude with his poem War:

'Why must I live in this grim age / When, to a far horizon, God / Has ebbed away, and man, with rage / Now wields the sceptre and the rod? / Man raised his sword, once God had gone, / To slay his brother, and the roar / Of battlefields now casts upon / Our homes the shadow of the war. / The harps to which we sang are hung / On willow boughs, and their refrain / Drowned by the anguish of the young / Whose blood is mingled with the rain.'

We will remember the sacrifice of my grandfather's generation.

It is appropriate at this time of the year to remember and honour those who have served and who continue to serve in our armed forces. However, this year is particularly significant, marking as it does the hundredth anniversary of the end of the first world war. In recognising the sacrifice of those who served in the war to end all wars, I would like to mention those whose contribution can too easily be overlooked.

I refer to the loyalty and the heroism of those who came from what later became the Commonwealth. They came from thousands of miles away to fight for a country they had never seen. People came from some 80 countries now part of the Commonwealth to fight in the first world war. Many came from Australia, New Zealand and Canada, and many more came from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Africa and the West Indies. One and a half million volunteers came from an unpartitioned India alone, and 150,000 troops served in the western front alone. Soldiers from the Indian subcontinent won 13,000 medals, including 12 Victoria crosses. Fifteeen thousand soldiers from the West Indies saw action, and they won 81 medals for bravery. Fifty-five thousand men from Africa fought for Britain, winning 1,066 decorations. In these days of increasing racial prejudice and discrimination, it is right to take time to reflect on these facts.

In cemeteries across the world are the graves of people of all races and faiths, or of no faith, who fought side by side to defend the freedom that we all enjoy, and they sacrificed their lives. We owe every one who served a great debt, and that debt continues today because, sadly, the war to end all wars proved to be false. Twenty-one years later, the world was plunged into a second world war, and numerous other conflicts since: the Falklands, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan, to name a few.

Many veterans today have to live with conditions related to their service. Recent research from King's College London suggests that conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan may have led to an increase in the rate of, as my colleague mentioned, post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, among members of the armed forces. Sadly, one member, at least, dies every week from this problem. We have to do something, Minister, and I asked you earlier to mention something about veterans, and your reply was so pathetic that I am still ashamed of your reply, because you never mentioned anything in their favour.

And yet, veterans in Wales and their families have faced inconsistencies when accessing healthcare, relying on the third sector and charities to deliver the specialist and rehabilitation services that they need, in spite of the armed forced covenant. Unpreparedness means that veterans face considerable obstacles in returning to civilian life in Wales. Providing veterans with leaflets is not a substitute for the specialist support they need in accessing housing. The same is true of accessing employment. Many veterans have significant skills that could prove useful to businesses in Wales, yet research by Barclays bank shows that less than half of employers would look favourably on military experience on curriculum vitae. There remain no signs to date of Welsh Government's employment pathways. If we are truly to honour the debt we owe to our armed forces, we must ensure the effective implementation of the covenant at all levels. That is why I ask that the new First Minister, on taking office, reviews the decision to reject the appointment of an armed forces commissioner.

Deputy Presiding Officer, the Indian writer Raghu Karnad wrote, and in his words,

‘People have two deaths: the first at the end of their lives…and the second at the end of the memory of their lives, when all who remember them are gone.’

We must ensure our armed forces, present and future, remain unforgotten and appreciated forever in Wales. Thank you.

I don’t think I can in any way match Dai Lloyd’s poignant reflections on the first world war, but we must remind ourselves that our armed forces do not go to war of their own volition; they go usually because politicians have failed. But it is the personnel of our armed forces who pay the price for that failure. Men and women from our cities, towns and villages are remembered each year by our coming together in those same cities, towns and villages, not to celebrate, but to pay honour to the sacrifice that members of all the forces have made on our behalf. We in UKIP place great value on that sacrifice, not only by those who died in that terrible conflict for which we now celebrate 100 years since its end, known to us as the great war, but also those who died in that second great war of the twentieth century and, indeed, all the conflicts in which our armed forces have been engaged since the end of that second world war. On behalf of UKIP, I would like to thank all those who work in the charitable organisations, in particular the Royal British Legion, to ensure that those who have suffered in their service to this country are looked after in the best possible way.

We acknowledge and welcome the progress made by the Welsh Government in its support of the expert group on the needs of the armed forces community in Wales and their approach in ensuring that the armed forces covenant is upheld, and also the many interventions they have initiated in support of this aim. However, perhaps just one note of discord is that I understand the expert group met last on 7 February 2018, and prior to that on 5 July 2017, a whole seven months between meetings. If this is true, then it's not an acceptable time lapse for such an important organ for the delivery of the interventions put in place by the Welsh Government.

We support the call for an armed forces commissioner. We see him as someone who would have a co-ordinating role in bringing together all the disparate parts of the support mechanisms available to our ex-servicemen and women, and in making sure they work in the most effective way. If we have a children’s commissioner, an older people’s commissioner and a future generations commissioner, why not one for ex-forces personnel? We also support Neil McEvoy’s call for a no soldier left behind Act. Let’s give a legal binding to the Government’s duty of care to our ex-service personnel.

Our armed forces are renowned for being the best in the world, and therefore it is imperative that we have someone at the head to ensure that the best get the best in both the care and treatment they receive when they leave the armed forces and, indeed, whilst they are serving in any of the armed forces.

Let us be proud of the fact that Wales has just 5 per cent of the UK population but provides 8 per cent of Her Majesty’s armed forces. It is therefore fitting that Wales should be at the forefront in ensuring that our ex-servicemen and women are treated with the respect and honour they deserve. Sleeping rough on our streets or the mental problems associated with their days in combat not being diagnosed or treated are not what they should expect. We must do all we can to support such victims and eradicate the scourge of them being forced to live on our streets.

It is really heartening, actually, to be an Assembly Member and to stand here this evening in the National Assembly for Wales in solidarity with Members across all the political divides here in the Chamber, as we all pay our honoured respects to those who have gone before us and those who continue to work on behalf of us and our country, to ensure that we have the freedoms that we do.

And as we remember now the anniversary of Armistice Day, for me, I was absolutely delighted—and it was such an honour and a privilege—to be invited, as the Assembly Member for Aberconwy, to the Armed Forces Day in Llandudno, along with my colleague Darren Millar AM. And I think Darren would confer with me that it was just an incredible event in which over 1,000 serving personnel and veterans took part. It was a day of celebration of the wonderful work undertaken by our services across the UK, and our Royal British Legion, and overseas. And it was such an honour to meet so many inspirational people who have given their lives to serve and protect their country without fear whatsoever. And we do remember those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice to preserve the freedoms and values that we so cherish and that allow me, here today, to have freedom of speech.

We must never forget the terrible events, though, of 100 years ago and in many wars following. So, I do join colleagues in welcoming the Royal British Legion's #ThankYou100 campaign. Our armed forces, past and present, have contributed so much to our nation and they deserve our utmost gratitude.

It is welcome then that the Welsh Government did publish guidance in 2017 on how local authorities can uphold the armed forces covenant. The covenant is a hugely important means of recognising the sacrifices made by our armed forces personnel and their families, and seeks to help them, hopefully, to reintegrate back into civilian life. A fundamental obligation of this is to ensure that health services understand and respond to the particular health considerations of veterans, those who are injured in war, and those who now require much needed treatment. They need the distinct treatment pathways that clinicians are, technically, required to follow. Yet, the support and treatment that these individuals receive can be less than consistent across Wales. In a freedom of information request by the Welsh Conservatives, the Betsi Cadwaladr university health board, which covers my own constituency, stated that it was adhering to guidance published in 2008 by the Welsh Government and not currently the 2017 guidance. So, with the Cabinet Secretary being here present, I would ask him to look at that. This issue is exacerbated as the Betsi board has delivered no formal training to staff regarding its own obligations, whilst also not requiring veterans to identify themselves when receiving treatment. How wonderful it would be if there was some direction of travel where they could continue to receive support. And I see the Cabinet Secretary shaking his head. Shame on you. 

Veterans are being let down by a lack of wider recognition of these principles. It is increasingly difficult to measure how the armed forces covenant is delivered as the Welsh Government does not collect sufficient data to properly scrutinise this.

It is highly disappointing that the Welsh Government rejected the idea of creating an armed forces commissioner for Wales earlier this year on cost grounds. And I think this is the seventh time I've spoken since I was elected as an AM, where I know that Darren Millar and the Welsh Conservatives before I came here have wanted a commissioner. I cannot see why it is being rejected on cost grounds. What cost is one life? The welfare and well-being of our armed forces personnel should most certainly come before money considerations. The service they have given, and continue to give, to their country deserves recognition. Establishing a commissioner would help to ensure that the principles of the covenant are firmly established in Wales, focusing efforts on providing support for personnel and for veterans. It would particularly help to formulate a more coherent national plan to provide more access to tailored health services that meet the needs of these individuals. We need to redress the disadvantages faced by our serving military personnel and veterans; they deserve better. I urge every Member of this Chamber to support this motion and to ensure that our armed forces receive the best help possible. They need our support, they need our help, and it is our duty to provide that. 

May I begin by thanking the Conservative group for tabling this very important debate today? I'll begin with a few brief words explaining how the Plaid Cymru group will vote in this debate. We will support the Government amendment, not because we believe that everything that could be done is being done, Mark Isherwood has made a very effective case that that's not the case, but we're not convinced at this present moment that a commissioner is the answer, though we would be open to being convinced in the future. 

Similarly, with amendment 2, we will abstain on this occasion, though we appreciate the sentiment behind it. We're not yet entirely convinced that legislation is the way forward, but it may be that it does become necessary, and I would certainly personally be very interested in exploring how such legislation could work and could be made to ensure that the covenant is effectively delivered on and that there are sanctions for public services if they fail to do so. 

It is not always right, Deputy Presiding Officer, to use personal experience when we speak in this Chamber, but I feel I wish to do so today. I want to pay tribute to my father, John Mervyn Jones, born in 1910 in Cwm Aman, Aberdare. He joined the Royal Naval Reserve in 1938, not because he was young and naive, he was a 28-year-old schoolteacher, not because he was seeking adventure or longing to fight, he was one of the gentlest men I've ever known and he had seen his uncle come back broken and destroyed from the first world war; fighting was not what my father would have wanted to do. He didn't even join out of patriotism, but he had seen the rise of fascism in Europe, and he was convinced that the only way to defeat fascism was to fight.

He served throughout the war and, like many, spoke relatively little of his experiences. As children, we'd hear the funny stories. My personal favourite was my father describing being served pasta for the first time in Italy and having absolutely no idea what it was or what he was supposed to do with it. Regrettably, particularly for my poor mother, it left him with a long-going resistance to anything that he regarded as foreign food—meat there, vegetables there, and never the twain shall meet. 

Much later, he spoke particularly to me, and particularly when he could describe those experiences through the medium of Welsh, of the darker experiences he faced in the war. But he went on to have a family and a successful career, and he was lucky and regarded himself as lucky. Luckier, of course, than many of today's veterans, who are asked to risk their lives and lose their health in conflicts that many at home oppose. 

My father was horrified at the end of his life to witness the sacrifices asked of our servicepeople in what he regarded as an unjust and unlawful war in Iraq. Having fought himself, he knew what was being asked of them. He would have been sickened to see, as many ex-servicepeople, I suspect, are, our exceptional service personnel here in Wales today being expected to train Saudi pilots to bomb innocent civilians in Yemen. That was not what he fought for. 

He hated war, but he always believed that he had done the right thing and the only thing, and he came home to a grateful nation. He believed that he had defended democracy, he was proud to have done so, and the nation was proud of him. It is much harder emotionally for many of today's veterans, they have been asked to serve in controversial conflicts in very difficult circumstances and with unclear outcomes. Yet, serve they do. 

I passionately believe that, as we remember those who have served in the past, we must ensure that we support today's veterans, particularly those suffering from trauma and mental health problems, after what successive UK Governments have sent them to do. We must honour the covenant. Whatever we think of the conflicts in which those men and women have been asked to serve, serve they did, and we owe them our gratitude, our respect and our support.

I would like to thank the Welsh Conservatives for tabling today this important debate. It is a pleasure to be part of the cross-party group on the armed forces, and I would like to thank Darren Millar for the commitment he shows in his leadership. I also want to pay tribute to Carl Sargeant, who worked tirelessly in this area and achieved much.

On Sunday, we will gather at war memorials across the country to mark Armistice Day, the day the guns fell silent during the war to end all wars. One hundred years ago on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month, the bloodshed ended five years of conflict that saw millions of lives lost in the so-called 'great war'. But, unfortunately, it was not the war to end all wars and in the 100 years that have followed, the world has seen innumerable conflicts and no end of bloodshed. It is a sad fact that sometimes war is unavoidable. We have to take a stand against despotic regimes and dictators hellbent on butchering even their own people.

There are currently 60 ongoing armed conflicts around the globe and, because of this, we are seeing increasingly emboldened Russia determined to return its borders back to its Soviet-era lines. Because of this, we need our armed forces more than ever. We need those young men and women in uniform who are prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, to lay down their lives in defence of our freedoms. In order to honour those who made that sacrifice and to thank all those who are, and were, prepared to make that sacrifice, we will gather on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day of the eleventh month and we will remember them.

But we, as elected Members, have a duty to do so much more than honouring our dead heroes. We have to ensure our living heroes are well cared for. Far too many ex-service personnel are being let down by the state, far too many are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, and far too many are in prison because they were not helped to adapt to civilian life, and far too many are sleeping rough because they don't have adequate housing. Men and women who fought for us, who are prepared to die for us, simply abandoned.

The armed forces covenant is supposed to ensure that this doesn't happen, which is why I welcome the Welsh Government's appointment of armed forces liaison officers across Wales. I, like the Conservatives, want to ensure that the covenant is upheld, but I don't know if an armed forces commissioner is the right way. I also believe the covenant does not go far enough and will be supporting Neil McEvoy's amendment calling for an Act to guarantee quality housing and healthcare to veterans who have seen active service. How can we allow someone who risked their life for us in defence of our nation and freedoms to sleep in a rubbish bin behind some shops or to relive over and over the horrors and trauma of the front line? They should be given the best available treatment and housing as a very small measure of recompense for the enormous debt we owe them.

It was an honour a few weeks ago in Port Talbot: our local mayor honoured the armed forces covenant, and it was also wonderful to stand side by side with Blesma, the charity for limbless war veterans, and collect and see the generosity of the people of Port Talbot as the bucket got heavier and heavier. What better way to mark Remembrance Sunday and the hundredth anniversary of the end of the great war than to commit to introduce legislation to improve the lives of our veterans? I urge Members to support the motion and the two amendments. Thank you.

Can I now call the Cabinet Secretary for Local Government and Public Services, Alun Davies?

Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Like others in this debate, I'd like to start my remarks by paying tribute to the work of my friend and predecessor Carl Sargeant. I think today has been a difficult day for many of us and our hearts go out to Bernie, to Jack and to Lucy and to the family. And in replying to the debate this afternoon, I hope that we will all think about the work that Carl undertook and hope also that we will all be able to join together and remember somebody who was a friend and a great servant of the people of this country. 

Yesterday, I sought to outline how the Welsh Government will continue to support the armed forces community. I want to welcome very much the remarks made by Mark Isherwood in opening the debate this afternoon. I felt that he made some excellent remarks, and I thought it was a very thoughtful and valuable contribution to this debate. I will seek to answer most of the points that have been made in the debate during this reply, but I recognise I won't be able to respond to all the points that were made. So, I would, Deputy Presiding Officer, say that I will write to Mark and copy all Members in with a fuller response to the points that were raised in the opening contribution, because I do think it is important to us to respond fully to the points that were made there.

In terms of how we approach this, can I say I enjoyed listening to the speeches in the debate we've had this afternoon? I think it was good to hear the words of Hedd Wyn being spoken this afternoon, and I thought both Dai Lloyd and Helen Mary Jones were able to weave all of our family stories, our personal stories, into our national story. I think it is important to recognise that when we talk about the losses that this country has suffered in terms of maintaining our freedom, our society, our communities and our democracy, these are people—they are fathers and mothers, wives and husbands, brothers, sisters, sons and daughters—and we all know people who have suffered as a consequence of conflict.

It's very sobering to reflect, when Caroline Jones speaks about the guns falling silent on the eleventh hour of the eleventh day, that over 800 British and Commonwealth soldiers were killed on that day. To think about that toll on any day today would be quite an unimaginable loss, but that, on the day we where we welcomed the end of war and the advent of peace, demonstrates the actual impact of that conflict on communities up and down the country. 

I think it's also important to recognise the points that Mohammad Asghar made in his contribution, when he spoke about the troops who had fought in that conflict, and the fact that the fusiliers, which Dai Lloyd's grandad probably fought with and alongside, would have fought alongside Indian soldiers, and would have fought alongside those worshipping different gods—they would have fought alongside Muslim and Hindu soldiers as well, soldiers that we recognise in much of our own history. I think it's important that all of us, and some of us in this Chamber, in the debates that we have today, and the political debates that we have, recognise that the sacrifice in the first world war was a sacrifice made by people from all nations, by people from very different cultural and religious backgrounds. When we use loose language today, we should always recognise that the consequence of prejudice, the consequence of discrimination, is all too often found on the battlefield. And I hope that many people will reflect on the language that they use in politics today when remembering the sacrifice of others over the years.

We have spent four years looking back over the first world war, and the centenary of the armistice on Sunday is an opportunity for us, not simply as a Government, but us as a National Assembly, a national Parliament for this country, to join the other nations, not only in the UK but elsewhere, in marking the centenary. We will be having a national service of thanksgiving in Llandaff cathedral, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to commemorate all those who were lost, injured and affected by that conflict. But I hope that we will all join together with all the nations involved in that conflict in remembering the sacrifice of all nations, and people who were lost in that conflict. I know that Members will also be taking the opportunity to attend events being held in their own constituencies, across this country, to mark this important time in history. It is right and proper for all of us to join together to remember the sacrifices of the armed services from each of our communities in this way.

I think it is right and proper as well that we commend the work of Cymru'n Cofio—Wales Remembers in delivering a comprehensive programme that commemorated the centenary of that conflict, of the first world war. The continuation of funding until 2020 will allow us to ensure that we also are able to learn lessons of that war. We remember that November 1918 was an armistice, it wasn't a peace. And peace came, and peace was created by leaders of nations, including, of course, our own David Lloyd George much later, and it is right and proper that we reflect on the consequences of war and the consequences of peace. I hope that the enduring legacy of Cymru'n Cofio—Wales Remembers is that people up and down this country will remember not simply the events of the first world war, but the consequences for our country of those events and the consequences for communities and families.

Deputy Presiding Officer, the Government agrees with the second point of the motion, and we will be supporting much of what has been said in the debate and in the motion today. Like many others, I've seen the silent silhouettes of the Royal British Legion #ThankYou100 campaign. Positioned throughout our communities, these figures provide us with the opportunity as a nation to say 'thank you' to all of those who served, sacrificed and changed our world. I am grateful to everyone who has supported this important campaign, and it brings home to us, I think, that these aren't simply names on memorials, that these are people, and these are people who stood and lived and worked and died and loved in our communities, and they're people who died defending our communities. These are people who we can all recognise in memory, but sometimes I think it's important that we recognise their place in our towns and villages across Wales. 

We will continue with our package of support to honour the contribution of all those who served and continue to serve in our armed forces, and we will attempt to continue to ensure that no members are disadvantaged in accessing public services as a consequence of their service in the armed forces. I have already this week discussed the support that the Welsh Government is providing as part of our work to deliver on the covenant. It is not my wish to repeat those points today, but I do wish to say a word about the expert group. Mark Isherwood was absolutely right when he said that there has to be public accountability for the actions of this Government in delivering on the covenant. I accept that completely. I hope that the expert group enables us to be able to do that, to understand how we deliver on the covenant, and to understand where we're not doing so, and to understand how we have to deliver in a different or better way in some areas, and we will continue to do that. We will produce an annual report, which will enable this place to hold us to account for what we do and the promises that we make. I hope that we will be able, also, to consider how our democracy here in Wales may help us to hold myself and others to account to what we say, for the commitments that we make. I hope that we will be able to do that together with the expert group and also with the all-party group on the armed forces.

Deputy Presiding Officer, in bringing my remarks to a close today, I hope that Members across the whole Chamber will join with me in thanking all those who have served and all those who continue to serve, and we'll join together as a nation this weekend to recognise the enormous sacrifice of those who didn't have the opportunity to come home.

Thank you. I now call Darren Millar to reply to the debate. 

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for his positive response to this afternoon's debate and, indeed, all speakers for their often moving, very moving, contributions? I want to pay tribute to the Cabinet Secretary for the work that he's done in continuing the work of many of his predecessors, of course, including Carl Sargeant, who's anniversary of his passing we mark today. Carl was indeed a great friend. He was a friend to us and, of course, he was a friend to the armed forces and to the veteran community here in Wales, and I, for one, am very grateful for the work that he put in during his tenure as the Minister responsible for the armed forces and the way in which he engaged with the work of the cross-party group, which I have the pleasure of being able to share.

Just to touch on some of the personal stories—I have my own personal story as well, of course, today, on this poignant day. My great-grandfather fought in the first world war. He was an Irishman, from Dublin. He signed up when he was just 14 years old—he lied about his age. I've got a copy of the ticket on which he signed up, young Private John Collins. He went to fight on the western front and, thank God, he came back. 

Two hundred thousand Irishmen fought in the hostilities of the first world war, 35,000 of them died, and that's why I'm wearing a shamrock poppy today, in order to mark their contribution to the war. Because the Cabinet Secretary and Mohammad Asghar are quite right: it was the whole of the Commonwealth that was engaged in these hostilities. British men and servicemen from around the Commonwealth were fighting shoulder to shoulder against what they saw as the evil of their day, and many did pay the ultimate sacrifice. It's quite right that this weekend we will be remembering them, and we will ensure that their memory is not extinguished in the way that it is about so many other things in this world.

There has been a wonderful programme, I think, of commemoration that has taken place over these past four years, and I want to thank the First Minister for the way in which he initiated the Cymru'n Cofio—Wales Remembers programme all those years ago. I'm pleased to see that its programme of work is going to be extended. There are some very important anniversaries to mark over the next 12 months, of course, including the seventy-fifth anniversary of D-day and the 53rd (Welsh) Infantry Division's liberation of 's-Hertogenbosch in the Netherlands, which took place 75 years ago in October next year. I think it would be good if the work of Cymru'n Cofio could continue even beyond the timeframe by which it's already been extended, because there will of course be military anniversaries on an ongoing basis. It's not going to be that long away before we're marking the seventy-fifth anniversary of other events in the second world war, and indeed the eightieth anniversary and ninetieth anniversaries. So, this programme of military remembrance, I think, does need to continue.

Mark Isherwood opened this debate, of course, by highlighting the fact that not only has there been significant progress in recent years, but that we still have some way to go in ensuring that there is consistent support available for our veteran community, certainly as far as the national health service is concerned. We have a great story to tell with Veterans NHS Wales, but there are waiting times that are too long to access that service at the moment, and that is despite the good work of Help for Heroes, in terms of the investment that it's put in, in order to try to help fill those gaps.

The third sector, of course, does a tremendous job in supporting our armed forces family. The Royal British Legion has been mentioned on many occasions today already, as has Change Step, but Combat Stress, SSAFA, Alabaré, Woody's Lodge—a whole host of organisations are out there offering support, and I think it's to the credit of the Welsh Government that they've worked with them very well in extending that support to the veteran community. But, as I say, there's much more work to be done, and I think that we all need to put our shoulder to the wheel to make sure that those remaining gaps in services are indeed not just identified, but filled.

I just want to turn very briefly, before I close, to this issue about a commissioner, and the need for an armed forces commissioner here in Wales. My party of course welcomed the additional support for the armed forces liaison officers that are working and embedded in local authorities across Wales, and I think that we need to pay tribute to them for their work. But the reality is that those posts are junior posts in very large public sector organisations. Those individuals will not have the sort of clout that an armed forces commissioner supporting armed forces serving personnel across Wales and their families, and supporting veterans and their families, could have. We've seen the impact, the positive impact, of commissioners for children and young people, for older people, and indeed the future generations commissioner, now that she's taking on her work, and the way in which they can move an agenda forward in a way that others are not able to. So, I would urge all Members in this Chamber, including those that are still having the jury out, as it were, in terms of their views on this, to support the principle of an armed forces commissioner for Wales. Because I really do think it would make a huge difference to those armed forces families and the armed forces community across the country. [Interruption.] Yes, yes.

I just want to touch on the amendment that Neil McEvoy has also tabled, very briefly. I will not be able to support that particular amendment today, simply because you refer to soldiers only. Of course we know that those who serve in the military are not just soldiers. You have airmen, you have sailors, and a whole host of other people who are contributing to our armed forces. So, I regret that we will not be able to support your amendment today simply because of the limitations in terms of the way that it's been worded. But I do hope that people will reconsider this support for the armed forces commissioner in their voting intentions. Thank you.

Thank you. It's 15 minutes to open and close a debate and, if you're having two Members of your party, it's up to you to work out your timings. 

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Right, we move to voting time, then. Unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung, I will proceed directly to voting time.