The first thing to say in response is that all rights—older people's, children's rights, the rights of disabled people—are universal and they should be applied in that way. The other thing is I think there is cross-party support for driving the rights agenda as well. I think the question is how we best do that. I'm more than happy to work constructively with Darren and any Member who brings forward suggestions on a rights-based agenda to see whether legislation is the right way forward or whether there are alternative ways. I don't say that latter part of my sentence to row away from, but I think that making rights real is far more than only legislation. That's where, working with commissioners, we can draw out very practical ways for when we talk about older people in care homes, older people who have social care packages in their own homes and so on.

What strikes me is that if I go to a school in Swansea and I ask children about rights, they can articulate to me by the number what those rights are. They can tell me about right 31, the right to play. They can tell me about article 12, the right to be heard and to have grown-ups actually put their ideas in a process. But, if you go to an older person's group and say, 'Do you realise you have rights?', they'll say, 'Really?' So, we've got a way to go.

I'm more than happy to engage constructively on that, because I think we share the same aim. I would simply say in reciprocation, let's engage with it practically on what would be needed to actually make those rights real and make older people aware of the rights that they have, which are universal.