That brings us to our next item, which is a debate on the petition 'Presumption in Favour of Rural Schools'. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. David Rowlands.

Motion NDM6871 David J. Rowlands

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the petition, ‘P-05-828 Presumption in favour of rural schools’, which received 5,125 signatures.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, may I thank Members for the opportunity to hold this debate today? This petition, 'Presumption in Favour of Rural Schools', concerns the Welsh Government's school organisation code and the protection afforded to schools in rural areas. As Members will know, recent revisions made to the code attempt to provide stronger safeguards and protection for rural schools, and I congratulate the Government for those revisions, which specifically include a presumption against the closure of rural schools.

The newly revised code came into force on 1 November. This means that all new proposals for school closures or organisation will be governed by a new process. However, it doesn't apply to existing proposals, and this petition calls on the Welsh Government to do all that it can to ensure that all local authorities are following the spirit of the revised code, even where proposals are being determined under the previous version. Underlying the petition is a concern that some local authorities have moved to close some rural schools in advance of the new code coming into force. Specifically, the petitioners are concerned about the planned closure of Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd, a primary school near Llangefni, Anglesey.

The petition received 5,125 signatures, and I want to start this debate by acknowledging the support enjoyed by the petition and the commitment of those who have campaigned to gather the signatures. As I have outlined, the future of a specific school, Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd, is central to this petition and to the issue of the future for rural schools. The Petitions Committee has heard that Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd currently has around 85 pupils. Like many rural schools, it plays a major role in the local community, both as a place of education and as a well-used community resource. However, unlike some, we understand that it has a very low level of surplus places, only around 1.6 per cent. Isle of Anglesey County Council proposes to close Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd and another primary school in Llangefni, Ysgol Corn Hir. In their place, the council intends to build a new, larger school with a capacity of 360 children.

A consultation took place earlier this year, and at the end of September, Anglesey council published a statutory notice confirming its intention to proceed with the closure from September 2020. Because the process was initiated prior to the new code coming into effect, it has been determined in accordance with the first edition of the school organisation code. Under the new code, Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd is listed as a rural school, therefore, whilst it is not possible to know whether the new code would have led to a different outcome, it is reasonable to suggest that Anglesey council would have had to consider the proposal in a different way if the process had been initiated later. The petitioners are seeking to make the case that councils should be obliged, or expected, to act in accordance with the spirit of the new code, because the Welsh Government's desire to strengthen the protection offered to rural schools has been known for some time. I will focus on this broader issue for the remainder of my contribution.

A review of the policy regarding surplus school places, with an emphasis on rural schools, was part of the agreement that resulted in Kirsty Williams being appointed Cabinet Secretary for Education in June 2016. A consultation on revisions to the school organisation code was issued for public consultation in June 2017. This included a new presumption against the closure of rural schools. Following this, the new code finally came into force on 1 November this year. The presumption against closure means, in reality, that there is now a more detailed set of procedures and requirements where rural schools are proposed for closure. As the Cabinet Secretary herself previously noted, this does not mean that rural schools will never close, however it does mean that the case for closure must be strong and not taken until all viable options to closure have been conscientiously considered.

The petitioners contend that this has not happened in the case of Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd. They argue that two years after the proposal to close the school was first raised, a number of questions remain unanswered. These include the future of the nursery and other groups that use the school and what consideration the council has given to other options such as a federation with other schools or extending the existing school.

At the heart of the debate is the issue of whether a local authority should proceed to close a rural school without giving full consideration to the revised code that requires a stronger case to overcome the presumption against closure. I am aware that Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd is not the only school in this situation. The Cabinet Secretary has said on several occasions that she expects local authorities to factor in the Welsh Government's new policy towards rural schools when making decisions about school reorganisation. However, she has also made clear that the new code is not retrospective and that there is no statutory requirement to comply with its provisions before it came into force.

So, to summarise, then, there are several questions at the heart of this petition and this afternoon's debate. Firstly, the extent to which local authorities or others proposing a school closure should consider the requirements of the new code, even where there is no statutory requirement for them to do so. Secondly, how the Welsh Government can give practical effect to its expectation that local authorities should take the spirit of the new code into account. And thirdly, what other action the Government could, or should, take to protect rural schools such as Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd.

The Petitions Committee has, as yet, not reached any conclusions on this matter, and as a result I will leave it to others to expand upon the principles and arguments behind this issue. It only remains for me to say that the Petitions Committee will return to consider the petition again at a future meeting in the light of the contributions during this afternoon's debate. Diolch yn fawr.

I congratulate the Petitions Committee and in particular the way the Chair introduced the debate and outlined the considerations and arguments that have been put before the Petitions Committee. As someone who was on the original Petitions Committee back in the 2007 to 2011 Assembly, I well remember an exercise similar to this being undertaken in that particular Assembly, when we went down to west Wales looking at the challenges that local authorities face and schools face and communities face in maintaining their local education network. Because it's really important to reflect that a rural school is the heart of that community. It creates an energy within that community, it creates an activity that supports other services within the community and, above all, it binds that community together.

I do welcome the Cabinet Secretary's intervention with the new code that has come into force this month, I believe I'm correct in saying, albeit it was laid before the Assembly back in the summer for consideration. I would like to reflect on an issue that is in my own particular area, and I appreciate that the Cabinet Secretary will not be able to speak directly to the Llancarfan school closure, which she has heard me speak on many times in this Chamber, but she did indicate that the code, even though it wasn't in force when various notices were issued on that particular school closure, should carry some weight, given that it was in the public domain and it was understood by the local authority to be part of the Government's thinking in maintaining the rich fabric of education provision in rural areas. Indeed, under the code, Llancarfan is the only rural school that is mentioned in the list of schools that the Government saw fit to include in the code.

The proposal to close Llancarfan school was a proposal that was first brought forward in 2012-13 by the then Labour-controlled council, and many residents in the area do feel that it's almost officer unfinished business, if that makes sense, what I've just said, in that the current councillors have picked up the mantle in trying to force through what was an ill-thought-out proposal back in 2012, and placed a great deal of store on the guidance that the Cabinet Secretary was bringing forward to protect their school. Because Llancarfan school is a school that is very vibrant. Whilst it might not have a full roll, it has a roll of in excess of 100 pupils, it has a school estate that, with modest expenditure, could be brought up to speed, and every argument that has been deployed by the current council to close—and, interestingly, they will not use the word 'close'; they use the word 'relocation'. I fail to see how you can say that you're maintaining the school in a location when the proposed new site is some 3 miles away. That, surely, is a loss to the site, and in anyone's understanding of the word 'closure', that defines closure.

This petition that has come, admittedly from the other side of Wales, from the top end of Wales in Anglesey, does pertain to many of the aspects that the community in Llancarfan have found themselves fighting against. And that very community, at every turn, has put forward a coherent plan to maintain the school within the village of Llancarfan, and supporting the surrounding villages. Every time an argument is put forward to support and maintain the school, an alternative argument is presented by the council. The first argument was that the only way twenty-first century schools money could be brought forward was by a relocation and creation of a new school. Thanks to the clarification that the Cabinet Secretary has given, that is not the case. Twenty-first century schools money can be used to upgrade current facilities. We are then told that there is a falling roll at Llancarfan and it would not sustain the current teacher-pupil ratio. Well, we know that there is a demand for education in that area, and that demand has been sustained for many years and would be sustained going into the future for many years as well. So, that argument doesn't stack up. And now we are hearing that because necessary orders have been placed, it is a foregone conclusion that the school will ultimately close in a few years' time, when the new site is presented to the community in Rhoose. I would say that that, actually, is a cocking-a-snook act—obviously, the sentiment that the Welsh Government put have forward via their new code.

I do believe, and I would hope, that the Cabinet Secretary will use her good office to try and influence this decision, because as we have heard, and as I've outlined in my comments today, it is a fact that twenty-first century money an be used to upgrade that school, it is a fact that the roll is strong enough to maintain the education provision in that school, it is a fact that the school has had a good Estyn report, and it is a fact that we identify that it is important that a rural school is maintained and isn't considered for closure as just a matter of course. It should be only considered for closure after every conceivable option has been considered and explored, and I do not believe that that is the case here. I therefore welcome the report that the Petitions Committee has brought forward, and unearthed various arguments, albeit in another part of Wales, but which is pertinent to the rest of Wales, and in my electoral area, in particular around Llancarfan school. I do thank other Members in the Chamber who have helped in the campaign and certainly will continue to support the community of Llancarfan, because this isn't a done deal, and we will continue to fight to maintain the school in the village of Llancarfan.

I wear several hats today. I live in a rural village where the school has been under threat recently. I am a former member of the Petitions Committee. And I am the Assembly Member of those who arranged this petition, parents and supporters of Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd, who are sincerely battling very hard to save their school.

There were 31 children in my first primary school. In the second, there were more than 200. They were excellent schools, but I have to say that, because my father was the head. My own children went to an urban primary school with 350 children first of all, then to a school with a little under 100 children on Anglesey. So, four very different schools, but a positive educational experience in all four. So, as a background to this debate, may I say that I don’t accept the arguments that a school has to be large in order to provide an effective primary school experience, and neither do I buy into the argument that children are necessarily happier in a small rural school? I'm convinced that quality primary education that is caring can be provided whatever the scale of the school.

And yet, we have seen a clear shift across Wales towards closing small rural schools. The problem we have, I’m afraid, is a financial problem and a staffing problem. Many of our relatively small schools in rural areas are old or are getting older and, generally, are expensive to maintain. They’re expensive to staff too, if the staff-pupil ratio is small. Also on the staffing side, leadership can be a problem. Far too often, it is very difficult to appoint a headteacher in a small rural school. In addition to that is the broader narrative that a larger school is, generally speaking, better, and it’s a combination of these things, I think, that makes councils feel that they don’t have much option but to rationalise or to reorganise or to modernise their school networks. And let’s be honest here: the cost is a very prominent factor in all things in these days of austerity. But what about the value of the schools as a social resource? And I’m not talking necessarily about a school hall being used every evening, although that does happen in a number of cases, but I'm talking about the school as the glue that binds the community together, and that brings us to this petition.

The petitioners in Ynys Môn have been given the hope that there may be a means of safeguarding that community glue. That hope came in the form of the Welsh Government’s revised school organisation code, which came into force on the first of this month, which introduced a presumption in favour of rural schools. I agree with the content; I have no problem with what it says, which is that a local authority needs to prove that they have considered all other options before closure, that they have gone through various processes, and that they have gone through detailed processes before making decisions to close. What we have here is guidance for local authorities to follow in drawing up proposals and in making decisions to close a school. To quote once again:

'A presumption against closure does not mean rural schools will never close.'

So, let’s be clear: there are no specific measures in place to keep rural schools open in statute, and, surely, specific measures, including resources, are what is required.

Again, I emphasise that I agree with what the code has to say. It insists on the consideration of federalisation, and I believe that everything should be done to keep a school in its community. Personally, I favour multisite area schools, where a number of schools come together under one head and one governing body. But I know full well that this doesn’t provide the kind of financial savings that councils have to make these days because of austerity. So, the Welsh Government needs to recognise the higher costs of providing education in rural areas if they are to do that and provide excellence, and provide the necessary support to local authorities serving rural areas to provide an education system that is appropriate to their communities.

There are rural school grants available, but they’re not sufficient: £2.5 million per annum. According to the Government, there are more than 300 schools that have benefited in the first year—that's around £8,000 per school. And whilst I welcome any additional funding, that isn't the kind of funding that can keep a school open. The Government states—and has stated in response to questions from me—that local authorities can bid for funding from the twenty-first century schools programme, but the truth is that it's easier to direct those funds to building new, larger schools. But if you don't have the money, Welsh Government, be honest, and don't pass the buck entirely to local government. We need collaboration here.

So, to summarise, closing some schools is inevitable, I think. When a school is down to a few dozen children, I think we've gone beyond what is sustainable. But if the Government is serious that there is an inherent value to a small, rural school, well, help our local authorities. Otherwise Ynys Môn, or any other local authority, has no choice but to continue to seek ways of providing excellent education in larger, cheaper schools rather than to provide excellent education in smaller, rural schools, as I know is perfectly possible.

I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate, and I'm very glad to follow Andrew R.T. Davies in raising yet again our joint opposition across this Chamber to the Vale of Glamorgan Council's latest proposal—of course, it is now a Conservative-controlled council—to close a successful school in my constituency and Andrew's region, Llancarfan Primary School. I think it is relevant to raise some of the points that we have been raising over the last few months. The fact that Llancarfan has been designated as the only rural school in the Vale of Glamorgan was welcomed, and we'd hoped that this would afford it some level of protection in consideration of the outcome of the second public consultation on the future of the school. But the Vale of Glamorgan Council appeared to ignore the consultation responses and, as I said this afternoon in questions to the Cabinet Secretary, hasn’t considered other options such as federation, and is pressing ahead with its plans.

We have grave concerns about the proposal to close Llancarfan school, a successful rural school in the Vale of Glamorgan. The closure plans are widely opposed and contested with rigorous expert independent evidence, and I've said that the concept of this being a transfer, as Andrew has said, of the school rather than a closure is both flawed and concerning, and does discredit the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013. It's also a unique interpretation of the school organisation code, and it could indeed set a precedent for local authorities to use school transfers as a means of avoiding additional safeguards for rural schools in the revised code. So, may we ask for these issues that I've outlined to be considered by the Welsh Government?

I do find it disappointing that there doesn't seem to have been any attempt by the Vale council to consider alternatives to sustain a successful rural school in Llancarfan and enhance provision at Rhws Primary School, which could access the twenty-first century schools programme.

The petition, of course, relates to a specific issue and to which version of the code should be followed in a particular case on Ynys Môn—the old version or the new edition; 2013 rather than 2018. Now, I have no specific comments to make on that particular case or which version should be used. That's an issue of great detail that needs consideration. But I would like to take this opportunity to make a few general comments on this whole issue of rural education in small schools.

The new code does note that a series of procedures and more detailed requirements must be gone through in making a decision to close a rural school. But, as the Cabinet Secretary herself has said, and as others have highlighted already, the presumption against the closure of rural schools doesn't mean that they would never close. I am entirely convinced that local authorities do give full consideration to the impact of any closure, code or not, and that federation and multi-site schools are very real options, and we need to take that into account.

Nobody, of course, wants to see a small school close. There are family links, there are emotional connections, schools can be the heart of a community—that's not always the case, but certainly in some communities they are crucially important to those communities. There are numerous examples of schools that are a very long way away from their neighbouring schools; it could be as much as 20 miles. Clearly, such schools do need to be considered in a very specific way, because that travelling distance is going to have a huge impact on the pupil and the education of that pupil.

But, as Rhun has already mentioned, rural education needs resources, and its those resources that are so scarce at the moment. Therefore, I have every sympathy with local authorities who are trying to strike that balance between maintaining buildings that are now too large for the pupil needs and high staff costs, and balancing that on the one hand with the need to provide the best possible opportunity to all pupils within the area of that authority to reach their potential. 

There is one pot of funding available, and very often councillors need to take very difficult and unpopular decisions if they want to ensure fairness for all children. So, for the code to be meaningful, it does have to be supported by resources, and they have to be sufficient resources. Unfortunately, we know how difficult that is in these days of austerity.

I call on the Cabinet Secretary for Education, Kirsty Williams. 

Thank you very much, Presiding Officer. I've listened carefully to the debate that's taken place this afternoon and I'm grateful to the Members for the time that they've taken to participate and for the clear passion that many of them have expressed for rural schools in the areas that they represent. 

I am clear that there can be real benefits—academic, cultural and social—to pupils and communities through the delivery of high-quality education in small and rural schools. I know, and parents across rural communities know, that small and rural schools play an important role in raising standards and extending opportunities for all. I also know that maintaining the provision of an accessible school in some small rural communities can make a significant contribution to the long-term sustainability of the local community, which is why one of the very first commitments I made as education Secretary was to strengthen the school organisation code in respect of a presumption against the closure of rural schools.

I would have to say, gently, to Rhun ap Iorwerth that was a manifesto commitment of my party, which I have implemented, and I note that there was no mention of rural schools in the last two Plaid Cymru manifestos that were published. I also am sad to note that Anglesey council, in their response to the consultation on the new code, objected to the principle of a presumption against closure. 

Will you take an intervention?

Of course. 

But you will add to that that, in a subsequent submission to Welsh Government, Anglesey council made it clear that they supported the code. 

Clearly, your lobbying must have paid off and they didn't want to—. They wanted to spare your blushes, Rhun. 

Following a 14-week public consultation, the revised code, which now includes a presumption against the closure of rural schools, and the first ever designation of rural schools for this purpose, came into force, as the Chair said, on 1 November. A presumption against the closure of rural schools does not mean—and I have been very clear about this—that rural schools will never close. However, it does mean that the case for closure must be strong and not taken until all viable alternatives to closure have been conscientiously considered, and that includes the principle of federation. I believe that consideration of alternatives should be a two-stage process, with the proposer doing this before they even decide to proceed to consultation, with an opportunity for anyone else with an interest to put forward suggestions for alternatives as part of the consultation, which the proposer must consider, and the new code provides for this. 

Of course, it is important for Members to remember that it is not Welsh Government but it is local authorities that are responsible for planning school places and for ensuring that there are sufficient schools providing primary and secondary education in their area. Schools are regarded as sufficient if they are sufficient in number, character and equipment to provide for all pupils the opportunity of an appropriate education. In order to fulfil these duties, local authorities must ensure that they plan thoroughly for schools serving their area. This is linked directly to a local authority's duty to strive to raise education standards.

Proposers will have long deliberated over whether to proceed to consultation on the closure of a school. However, it is important that the proposer is open to new ideas and suggestions and proposals emerging from the consultations, and that the final decision that the proposer may make is not a foregone conclusion. In undertaking their responsibilities in respect of school reorganisation, local authorities and other relevant bodies must comply with the statutory provisions of the code and must have regard to the statutory guidance. The code recognises that education must be the primary consideration. The presumption against the closure of rural schools aims to balance local authorities' responsibilities with the wishes and concerns of local communities. It aims to ensure that rural schools are given a fair hearing and that closure is not seen as an only option or the foregone conclusion. 

As I stated previously, the revised code came into force on 1 November and applied immediately. From that date, local authorities considering bringing forward proposals to close a school will be required to check whether the school is on the list and the further procedures and the requirements set out in the code will then apply. However, the new provisions do not apply to proposals already in train, where the consultation was published prior to the code coming into force. And this is necessary to ensure the proposers are able to comply with the code in force, including in respect of their consultation. And, although the presumption against the closure of rural schools does not apply to these proposals, local authorities and other proposers must nevertheless ensure that they comply with the first edition of the code. This includes ensuring that the proposal to close any school is robust and in the best interests of educational provision in that area, and that the impact of the closure of a school on the community has been assessed through the production of a community impact assessment. 

The code sets a high standard for consultation, providing for all those with an interest to make their views known and have those views taken into account. Anyone with an interest can also make their views known through any objection period that may follow. 

With regard to the petition, Members will appreciate that, given the potential for proposals to be referred to Welsh Ministers for determination—and I have had to make such determinations—I am unable to comment on the merits or otherwise of any proposal that may subsequently be referred to me for determination.

Will you take an intervention?

Of course. 

Can I thank the Cabinet Secretary for taking the intervention and thank you for the determination that you made in respect of Ysgol Llanbedr in my own constituency, a school that the local authority had planned to close, but I was very grateful for your determination to keep that particular school open? I think the one concern about the determination process, if I may, is the length of time that it sometimes takes for Welsh Ministers to actually consider the evidence that is before them. I wonder if you could comment on how that can be reduced in order to take away the uncertainty that that can cause for small schools when such determinations are being considered.

Thank you, Darren, for your thanks with regard to the determination. I would be the first person to hold my hands up here and agree with you that that determination took too long and we will need to do better in ensuring that such determinations that may come to Ministers are taken in a more timely fashion, and I hope that I and my officials will be able to use that experience to ensure that the procedures are quicker next time such a proposal comes. I hope the community is pleased, and I wish that school—I wish that school well. 

Of course, the presumption against the closure of rural schools is just one of the actions, Presiding Officer, that we are taking to support rural education. We've also introduced a new annual small and rural schools grant of £2.5 million per year to encourage innovation and support greater school-to-school working and to increase the community use of buildings. Around 400 schools right across Wales are already benefiting from that grant. This, alongside our new E-sgol initiatives, which support schools in the digital age to introduce innovative teaching techniques, are key parts of our rural education action plan, which I launched last month. I'm confident that this plan, which brings together all of the Government's actions for rural schools in one coherent plan, will deliver for our young people to ensure everyone, no matter their background or where they live, has the opportunity to enjoy an excellent education.

I call on David Rowlands to reply to the debate.

Diolch, Llywydd. Can I thank the Members for their contributions to the debate, and thank the petitioner again for bringing the petition forward?

I will make a short synopsis of some of the comments that were made. Andrew R.T. Davies made the point of a rural school often being at the heart of a community, citing Llancarfan school in his constituency as an example of closing a school that has a strong argument to be kept open.

Rhun ap Iorwerth argued that a school does not have to be large in order to give a good educational experience, and also spoke of difficulty in obtaining teachers for small rural schools as an acknowledgement of, often, how it is difficult for local authorities to keep schools open. He also reiterated Andrew's point about rural schools being part of the community. He also, of course, asked for more financial support for local authorities, which comes outside the bidding process.

Jane Hutt questioned why the existing procedures could still result in closing successful rural schools, and also questioned why, often, alternatives were not always fully explored.

Siân Gwenllian first of all spoke, of course, of Ysgol Gymuned Bodffordd and then acknowledged that there are cases where schools have to close, but also mentioned the distances that pupils may have to travel—sometimes up to 20 miles—and that that should be taken into account when decisions are made about closing rural schools.

Turning to the Cabinet Secretary's replies, she acknowledged the community resource that rural schools often represent. The Cabinet Secretary asserted that this was one of the reasons for strengthening the code. She also made the point that there now has to be a full consultation by the authorities before they actually close a school, and they have a duty to abide by the statutory requirements of the code. I'm not sure that she's actually answered the petition in saying that, because the petition calls for there to be some pressure on authorities to look at the spirit of the code in the light that the code has been strengthened.

The Petitions Committee will return to consider the petition again at a future meeting. In so doing, we will seek to consider the petitioner's reaction to the points raised today, and, of course, the response from the Cabinet Secretary for Education. On behalf of the Petitions Committee, I am grateful to all Members for their contributions and for the opportunity to debate this matter today. Diolch.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. The motion is, therefore, agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.