Group 4 is the next group of amendments, which relates to transportation between providers. Amendment 12 is the lead and only amendment in this group, and I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to move and speak to the amendment—Janet Finch-Saunders.

Amendment 12 (Janet Finch-Saunders) moved.

Diolch, Presiding Officer. Amendment 12 has been re-tabled from Stage 2. It is imperative that Ministers are under an obligation to deliver the childcare offer free from potential barriers. During Stage 1, the Children, Young People and Education Committee was made aware of concerns by a number of organisations about moving children between sites that provide the offer and sites that provide early years education. Both Estyn and the Welsh Local Government Association have realised that it is important to investigate the transportation of children, with some partnership working being undertaken in parts of Wales. Yet Estyn have admitted that they were not observing the movement of children from one site to another, and the Minister's evidence at Stage 1 clearly showed a patchy picture of transport for children across Wales. Either parents were organising their own handovers or some childcare providers were simply finding ways to link up with different settings.

The Minister himself also noted that there should be a focus in future on increasing co-location and collaboration in maintained and non-maintained settings. At Stage 2, he confirmed this position by maintaining that he wanted to increase significantly the proportion of childcare delivered in co-located premises, yet refused the amendment on the basis that placing a duty on Welsh Ministers was not necessary to tackle the issue. It is welcome that the Minister has confirmed additional research questions on the evaluation of year 2 of the pilot schemes to further examine the matter, as well as promised to consider transportation with the evaluation of national roll-out of the offer. However, we believe that this does not go far enough, especially due to the recommendation outlined in the first year's evaluation—specifically, the evaluation of year 1 recommends that further consideration needs to be given to the alignment between the provision of childcare and the delivery of foundation phase nurseries. This could include transport to and from settings. It is further recommended that closer working relationships may be required between foundation phase nurseries and childcare providers who are delivering the offer.

As such, it is important that Welsh Ministers are under a duty to oversee these recommendations so as to prevent further barriers for parents to access the childcare offer. Therefore, we ask the Assembly to support this motion.

The Minister, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Diolch, Llywydd. Just in opening, I think it is important to remind ourselves that this isn't something new; it's not arising as a result of the offer. It's not uncommon now—and I, as a parent—to receive education and childcare in different places and to make arrangements in terms of transport. The need to transport children is not something that arises in every setting, however, or in every part of Wales. But it is a feature of the services provided in some locations, and, in part, it's arisen as a result of the history of the sector and market pressure. Childcare providers are sometimes responding to what parents are asking for. It's important to remember that sometimes parents may want or need to use more than one provider for different parts of the offer or different parts of childcare. Think of parents who work, for example, late or early shifts, or even on weekends. So, it is important that we are committed to ensuring that there is still sufficient flexibility within both the sector and in the offer to accommodate their needs as well.

But look, let me make it clear that I've said all along that I will take steps wherever I can to ensure that this offer is as seamless as possible—I repeat that today—for the benefit of parents and for children. Now, as I said during Stage 2, I don't think that placing a duty on the Welsh Ministers to minimise the impact of transporting children between providers on the face of the Bill is the way to tackle this issue. It often arises as a result of those local or specific family circumstances, which are outside the remit and the power of Government. But, at the request of Members, I've asked my officials to add research questions that cover specifically the issue of transportation to the independent evaluation of year 2, and I hope—. Janet, I can see you nodding there. I hope you'll welcome that. And I'll consider this again as part of the review of the national roll-out as well.

The evaluation of year 2 of early implementation will include in-depth interviews and an online census survey of parents and providers, and we'll ask parents whether they have issues accessing the offer that relate to either transport or wraparound care, and we'll ask parents whether they perceive any transport or wraparound care their child receives to be having a positive or negative effect, and I would say—because I've visited a lot of these settings, some of them where they're co-located, some where they are moving between—and, for some of the parents, it is exactly what they want. So, we shouldn't be trying to stamp out diversity. But I think having more co-location provides a much more seamless offer. Now, providers in the survey will also be asked about demand for provision, including transport and wraparound care, any challenges they might have in providing this, and their perception of whether this has a positive or negative impact on the children in their care.

Now, as I said, I fully appreciate this situation has arisen not out of the blue. It's been there for years. It's, in part, because of the way we historically approach education and childcare, and because, in some parts of Wales, early education can only be accessed in specific settings. Now, this is something that I and the Cabinet Secretary for Education have discussed and we're keen to address.

So, we issued revised guidance to local authorities in September, making it clear that we want to see more flexibility in the delivery arrangements for early education. If we allow more childcare providers to offer this, this should increase the options for single-site provision, which is exactly, I think, what you're trying to achieve here, as I am. And, alongside this, in July, I announced a £60 million capital grant programme spread over the three years until 2021, and one of the primary purposes of this funding is to facilitate and support the co-location of early education and childcare provision wherever possible. This is in line with our 'Prosperity for All' commitment to introduce a new model of community learning centres, providing extended services with childcare, parenting support, family learning, community access to facilities built around the school day. It's where we're heading. And I'll be able to share more information with the committee about the outcome of that grant programme early in the new year.

Through guidance, the sharing of good practice, and using the financial levers we have at our disposal with things like the capital fund, we're encouraging local authorities and providers to think innovatively about how they might be able to deliver the offer. There are many good models out there. In fact, I've offered to members of the committee to identify those for them and even to arrange for them to go out and see them. Now, in light of those comments that I've made to monitor the impact of transporting children as part of the evaluation of year 2, of a more strategic approach to reducing the need for transportation between settings, to greater co-location, more innovative solutions, we will not be supporting amendment 12, and I would ask other Members to do the same.

Janet Finch-Saunders to respond. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I seriously do welcome the fact that you are warming to the idea that co-location and, sort of, better transportation are the way forward, but if I could just ask, as part of the research you say you're going to be carrying out, for you to look at the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee evidence that was taken from a number of mothers returning to work after maternity. They were very loud and clear that they were finding it a struggle now—those who could actually take up the childcare scheme—they were finding it very difficult to move between providers. So, I think there is a problem that exists there, and I would just, again, reiterate the concerns we've raised and ask that you do, in fact, show some willingness on your part and support us now on this amendment.

The question is that amendment 12 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We'll proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 17, no abstentions, 26 against. Therefore, amendment 12 is not agreed.

Ammendment 12: For: 17, Against: 26, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been rejected