I'm glad that you're able to join us in this debate, Darren, and as I was talking about a mature conversation, Darren demonstrates exactly what I didn't mean. [Laughter.]

So, we've spent money and the Conservatives in this budget round managed something that not even the Welsh Liberal Democrats managed—I've offended Kirsty now—and that was to spend every pound twice and three times. Every debate we had here on the budget, the Conservative response to every challenge facing us wasn't to reform but to spend money. Everything has to have money thrown at it, but we won't reform. And that is a fundamental test of a Conservative character. The Conservatives know what they don't want, but they don't know what they do want. There's a consistency there at least.

And that means that we do need to have this debate. I don't have and I don't share the fetish for low taxation for low taxation's sake. I don't share that. I believe that we should have fair and reasonable taxation. Fair and reasonable taxation that allows us to invest in our people and in our country. A taxation system that reflects our values and our ambitions and our visions for Wales.

If our ambition is only to persuade people who wish to save tax pounds to move here and pay less tax, what does that say to a child growing up in Blaenau Gwent? What does that say to somebody—we had a debate earlier today on the rights of older people—the country we want you to grow old in—? [Interruption.] I can see you—in a moment. Give me chance to finish my sentence. The country we want you to grow old in is only interested in reduced taxation. We're not interested in the services that will sustain you and sustain your family.