3. Statement by the Minister for Education: Curriculum and Assessment Reform: A White Paper on Proposals for Legislative Change

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:10 pm on 29 January 2019.

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Photo of Suzy Davies Suzy Davies Conservative 3:10, 29 January 2019

So, we're talking now about what will be effective to deliver this in a way that helps us raise rounded citizens who can achieve for themselves and their country, which is why I wanted to ask, really, why the word 'responsibility' has only appeared once in what our young people will achieve through the six areas of learning, because I think it's great to see words like 'confidence' and 'resilience', and the ability to be participants, I think, or to participate in decisions, but if our education is not helping people to move on from just respecting the needs of other people, which is a stated aim, to actually thinking they might have a responsibility in helping people meet those needs, then I think we might struggle with truly co-productive policy making in future. Actually, I think that's where we need a sea change, a game changer, if you like, in public policy in the future—amongst other changes.

Now, I'm sure that you'll say that my point is covered by the AoLEs, and it would be great if you could actually pinpoint how you actually think that will be the case, but what's not clear to me either at the moment is how these good citizen parts of the curriculum, if you like, will be weighted against the examinable areas of work. Because I welcome absolutely this need to reduce gaming that can go on in the current system, but I think we also need to keep an eye as well on avoiding new areas of gaming where decision makers can either swing in favour of exam results or avoid difficult questions about exam results by focusing on the non-examinable activity. Because when we talk about teacher freedom—and, as I say, I agree with you on this—it's just trying to establish quite how free they will be. Will they be free enough to actually avoid the stated policy objectives of what you're trying to do here? So, perhaps we can discuss that a little bit.

I mentioned the issue of what young people themselves think is valuable, and I'd be grateful if you could just give some indication as to how children and young people themselves have been involved so far. The White Paper talks about the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development observation that Welsh Government and the education sector have been working closely together, but it would be quite helpful to get an idea about how those who will be receiving this new-look education feel about it.

I'm sure this comes as a huge shock to you, Minister, but I do want to talk about cardiopulmonary resuscitation and first-aid skills—their place in the curriculum. I know you've heard all the evidence—evidence that has persuaded other Governments, not just the UK, that this is so worth while that they actually haven't left it to teacher discretion. The health and well-being AoLE speaks to individuals looking after themselves, but not really very much about looking after other people, which goes back to my initial point about mutual responsibility. So, I'd be quite curious to know why, at the moment, it looks like Welsh children might be disadvantaged compared to their peers in other parts of the world, actually, regarding a skill that they will now be taking for granted.

I'm conscious of leaving some questions for others, but I have got some more. Oh, yes—accountability. Now, I accept that how accountability is going to be measured from now on is still very much something that will be discussed with this Assembly, but what I'd like some steer on today, because we are talking about legislation, is what action you would take and refer to in legislation if this poor link in Wales, as it was described by the OECD, between accountability and improvement is not replaced, and pretty swiftly, by a link that works, particularly as the White Paper says that some of the existing accountability measures will be retained?

Just briefly on Welsh language and the wording to teach Welsh in various places in the White Paper—I think we need to explore that on another day. We haven't got much time today. I particularly wanted to ask, though, about the introduction of teaching English in Welsh-medium settings for very young children, and I can understand perhaps on grounds of fairness, when we're introducing so much Welsh now into English-medium settings, that this could be an attempt to not treat one language more favourably than the other. But I think these are not like-for-like situations, and I think it would help if you could bring us some evidence that suggests that those very young children learning through the medium of Welsh, through a continuum or otherwise, are in some way disadvantaged in a way that introducing English into their lives at that stage would overcome. As I say, these are not like-for-like situations and I don't think you can treat them in quite the same way. Tangentially, I'm just wondering what consideration was given to bringing modern foreign languages into the AoLEs much more visibly before key stage 3. I know it's not the same as Welsh language, but I am really worried about the future of modern foreign languages, even under this curriculum.

And then, finally—as I say, I'll leave teachers' training for another day. I'm pleased to see that you'll be putting some duties for Welsh Government on the face of the Bill. I wonder if I could ask you to consider a duty rather than a power to introduce statutory guidance assisting local government, governors and school leaders about how they can evidence fulfilling those duties around the four purposes. Because I know you will say, 'Well, of course, the Welsh Government will do this, and it's actually mentioned in the White Paper', but by committing through a duty to introduce guidance—and I'm not suggesting what should be in that guidance—I think that gives some comfort to those who are looking for certainty from this legislation. I think I need to give you fair warning that we'll be looking at making those duties in amendments at some point to introduce and review statutory guidance, to have some powers to vary that guidance after scrutiny from the Welsh Parliament, and also, as I mentioned earlier, to see what powers you would be looking for in order to take action in the event of duties by others not being met.

So, you're already aware of expressions of uncertainty about the delivery of the policy—we've discussed it in committee and a little bit in the Chamber. So, you have work to do on that, and, actually, as a legislature, we want to help you meet some of those concerns. I think it'll help both of us—meaning us as a Parliament and you as a Government—if your Bill looks to create certainty for those who will be responsible for implementing the Bill in due course and just doesn't join the list of Swiss cheeses that have been rolling out from Welsh Government lately. Thank you very much.