What the proposed prison in Port Talbot was truly about, in my view, was a Westminster Government that had failed to invest in Wales, had cancelled major infrastructure projects or failed to back others. It was another example of a Westminster Government that believed that Wales, having a flatlining economy, would jump at the chance to host anything with even a mild prospect of investment, regardless of what that investment was or the implications of it. We deserve better than that now and we did so then when the campaign was at its height. I must say, too, that the Welsh Government did, at the beginning, jump at the prospect of a prison; I remember the words of Carwyn Jones when he was First Minister. So, I am very pleased that the backbench Member now, but Minister at the time, Alun Davies was changing his mind on that and putting forward some very progressive ideas.

What this prison was about for us, and what it became about for many involved in the prison campaign was a conversation about our future and how we deal with the wider issues surrounding criminal justice. Is it right that the fate of Welsh prisoners is decided by a Minister in England? Is it right that, despite 20 years of devolution and an increasing body of Welsh law, we don't have a say over this huge, increasingly important aspect of policy? Is it right that Wales's prisoners are sent to English prisons and England's prisoners are kept here in Wales? And, of course, the wider question: why do we keep going down the road of mass incarceration instead of having a conversation about why we send people to prison in the first place, who actually needs to be in prison and how we need to focus on their rehabilitative needs? We had many of those discussions as part of the campaign in Port Talbot and we showed that, contrary to what some people may think, there is not as widespread a view as that which UKIP espouses—the throw-away-the-key attitude that some people may have. Do people believe that those convicted of a crime should pay penance? Yes. And we believe that too; we don't believe in having no prisons—that would be entirely absurd. But there is also true understanding and an eagerness to ensure that those convicted of less serious crimes are given a chance to turn their lives around and rectify their mistakes in a decent way.

We have to be wary, though, that the Ministry of Justice is still exploring the possibility of a new superprison in south Wales. The argument stands, as it did in Port Talbot, that we do not need another prison in south Wales. And I think the Ministry of Justice actually does itself a disservice in how it perceives Welsh politicians, because just by moving to another area of south Wales doesn't mean that we're not going to campaign, it doesn't mean that they're going to not face local opposition; we will take that campaign to that community, wherever it is, whether I represent that area or not, because we do not want that prison here in Wales. So, I hope that the Ministry of Justice takes note of that.

I believe that the UK Government position on this is predicated on the notion of more of the same. They hold a position that doesn't take reform seriously, seeks to deliver justice and rehabilitation on the cheap, locking people up in large prisons without enough resources, and they do that because the staff there have told us. Whistleblowers have come to us and said that that is what is happening. Under those circumstances, it's no wonder that the MoJ are looking to build more prisons.

So, we take a different view, as Leanne Wood has mentioned earlier, and argue strongly that, by refocusing how we treat convicted people, by overhauling sentencing laws and penal policy and by renationalising and reprioritising probation and rehabilitation, then we can cut and reduce the demand for prison places. Now, I don't have much time left, but what I would like to end on is trying to, perhaps, re-understand what this meaningful conversation with the MoJ actually means. I didn't understand it under the other Minister and I still don't understand what it means. We need clarification on—if the policy is not to have more prisons here in Wales, when and what those meaningful conversations with the MoJ will be to change your mind. What will it take for the Welsh Government to change your mind on some of these key issues of principle in relation to what we want to do with the future of our criminal justice system? If I get that clarity here today, I will be very pleased indeed, but I am thankful that we are continuing this debate and that we can address some of these issues, hopefully, in a progressive way.