Which brings us to the debate on the 'Wales' future relationship with the Committee of the Regions' report. I call on Mick Antoniw to move the motion. 

Motion NDM6942 Mick Antoniw, Bethan Sayed

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes the report and recommendations relating to Wales’ future relationship with the Committee of the Regions.

2. Recognises the importance of a continued relationship between Wales and the Committee of the Regions.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to support the establishment of a Joint Commission between the Committee of the Regions and the United Kingdom to ensure continuing dialogue and collaboration between the Committee of the Regions and the Assembly and Welsh local authorities after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU.

Motion moved.

Thank you, Llywydd. I move the motion and also refer to the document prepared by myself and Bethan Sayed on Wales's future relationship with the Committee of the Regions. Llywydd, by the end of next month, it is likely we will have left the European Union. Nothing, however, is certain. There could be an extension to article 50, there could be a general election, there could be a referendum or ratification of some form. No-one knows for certain, especially the Government. This means that our representation on a number of European bodies will come to an end. This report is predominantly related to our representation on the Committee of the Regions. It is not, however, exclusively so, which is why Bethan Sayed and myself have referenced a number of associated EU bodies that we are, as an Assembly, engaged in or associated with to one degree or another.

I'll be frank that I don't think we have ever had a sufficiently clear strategy in respect of these subnational structures of the European Union, nor have we maximised the potential benefit to Wales that we could have achieved. Nevertheless, our leaving the EU draws into sharp focus the consequences of leaving and the potential partnerships, associations and opportunities for engagement with other European countries and organisations that we are likely to lose unless we proactively take steps to construct new post-Brexit frameworks.

I was previously a member of the Committee of the Regions for two years in the last Assembly, with Rhodri Glyn as alternate. We worked well together, covering as many of the key areas of influence relevant to Wales that we could, from the economic and social policy in the EU to environmental policy. We both had a number of successful opinions that directly related to Welsh policy or issues. The relevance of the committee of the regions, in my view, has always been massively undervalued, because it enables a coming together of towns and cities, of federal states, of subnational governments and governance, and provides a framework for the development of EU policy, of access to the EU Commission, the EU Parliament and Council, and has played a massive role in the planning of regional metro transport systems, smart cities, environmental planning, recycling, regional governance, regional economic and regeneration projects, and there is much that we have implemented here that has its origins in the developments in other European countries, and then promoted and developed into strategies through the Committee of the Regions. 

At the moment, for example, I'm a member of the Committee of the Regions taskforce on Ukraine, and the Committee of the Regions is playing a significant role in the process of decentralisation and democratisation in Ukraine, twinning mentoring regions across Europe with the regions of Ukraine. Economic and social stability and security in Ukraine is vital to the future stability and economic prosperity of Europe. The geopolitical value of this type of work cannot be underestimated. 

The Committee of the Regions has also made a significant contribution to inter-regional policy on culture, the arts and on minority languages. Importantly, it is also a significant constitutional function and legislative power as a guardian of subsidiarity. In a post-Brexit world, Wales as a country, and this Assembly and Welsh Government, will need to develop its own specific relationship with Europe. We will want to protect the reputation we have established and developed, and develop new, more formal Welsh relationships, particularly in the field of innovation and research, and projects such as Erasmus. We will need to show that we are prepared to do what is necessary to overcome the political, economic and social isolationism that risks overshadowing our future identity. 

At recent meetings of the Committee of the Regions, the UK delegation has been promoting a new dialogue, to establish a new format for a post-Brexit associate status. This has been accepted in principle, but flounders around the uncertainty of the Brexit negotiations. Until there is clarity about the UK position and the final arrangements for the relationship between the UK and the European Union, the Committee of the Regions and other EU institutions are understandably reluctant to develop and formalise new arrangements and structures. 

Key issues will arise in respect of future UK engagement. It will have to properly represent the interests of devolved Government and the political diversity of the UK. We will want to promote a specific Welsh relationship within that, which is not restricted by previous UK arrangements. Issues of funding will have to be addressed. It is, for example, likely we will want to continue with Erasmus, one of the most successfully used social policies that enables young people from across Europe to engage with one another, study and train in various European countries. What is clear to me is that we will need a Welsh European voice. The isolationism and introversion of the extremists in the Tory Party and UKIP are not for us. We must continue to be internationalist and to be an outward-looking nation. It is very likely that by the conclusion of the next Committee of the Regions conference in March, significant progress will have been made, but the outline of the prototype structure for a future relationship will have progressed. The purpose of today's motion is for the Assembly to endorse the approach that Bethan and I have adopted, and to instruct the Welsh Government to take ownership of the process now. After 29 March, our input as members of the Committee of the Regions will have come to an end. It is therefore vital that Welsh Government fills that vacuum and continues the process until a formal arrangement is in place. The motion, therefore, calls on the Welsh Government to directly engage with the Committee of the Regions and with other EU institutions, and also to pursue this objective with the UK Government, as part of the ongoing Brexit negotiations. Thank you, Llywydd.

Can I say how much I welcome the debate that's before us today, on this important issue of engagement post Brexit? I do not accept the caricature that in order to be a Brexiteer, you are therefore not an internationalist, and you are an isolationist. That's certainly not my view. I'm very much an internationalist, and I think it's very important that we engage globally, and not just within Europe. And of course it's absolutely vital that we have a continued close relationship with the different regions within Europe post 29 March. I was an individual, of course, who voted to leave the European Union, but I do think that it's very important for this National Assembly, as an Assembly that has a look over the horizons that are beyond Wales, beyond the UK, and beyond 29 March.

We were told constantly, of course, during the referendum that it would be impossible to maintain a close relationship with other parts of Europe after Brexit, but, of course, that is absolutely not the case, and that's why my party was very pleased to see the new First Minister follow our lead, in appointing somebody who's responsible for international relations. And I'm very pleased to see that Eluned Morgan took on that post, given the wealth of experience that she had in Europe. And of course other groups in this National Assembly have also taken the opportunity to appoint international relations spokespeople. And it's great that Delyth Jewell has that privilege on behalf of Plaid Cymru, and I want to welcome her to her post.

I think that it's vitally important that, yes, the Welsh Government does develop its international relations strategy in terms of engagement around the world, and this, of course, is a very important part of it. But you're quite right to point out in your opening speech, Mick, about the need for this National Assembly, as an institution, also to have an international relations strategy, so that we can promote the work of the National Assembly outside of Wales, but also learn from other parts of the world too, in terms of how we operate and function as a devolved legislature within the successful union that, of course, is the United Kingdom.

Now, I have the privilege of representing the National Assembly as one of the members on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly. I've been a member of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly now for over a decade, and as part of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly's work, of course, we have the opportunity also to engage, in a different forum, with people from other legislatures within the UK, and of course the Republic of Ireland, and indeed some of the other islands that make up the British isles. And I find that that is a very useful way to work collaboratively with other parliamentarians, in terms of trying to explore some of the challenges that are often very common to all of us on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly.

I chair the European affairs committee of the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly, and that committee actually undertook a short inquiry about engagement with different European institutions following Brexit. It published a report about 18 months ago, and it looked at the value of engagement and collaboration that was already taking place—not just the inter-governmental collaboration, but we also did meet with the president of the Committee of the Regions, Karl-Heinz Lambertz, to have a discussion with him about the opportunities that might exist to still engage with the committee in the future. And it was very, very clear that there are a whole host of nations outside of the European Union that are already actively involved in different fora, which have been established for engagement. And some of the ones that he was referring us to were the Association of European Border Regions, for example, which of course is going to be increasingly prominent, I think, for us, in terms of our engagement going forward. It works very closely, of course, as Mick and Bethan will know, with the Committee of the Regions, and you don't have to be a member of the EU in order to engage with it.

So, I would very much encourage this National Assembly, and the Welsh Government, to seek some involvement with that particular organisation, as time goes forward, because I do think that there are huge opportunities for us in terms of international engagement post 29 March, and I think we ought to seize them, but we can only do that if we've got a proper strategy in place, both as a Parliament and in terms of the Welsh Government too. 

Can I welcome the report from our representatives in the Committee of the Regions and the introduction by Mick Antoniw in relation to the importance of the Committee of the Regions and what we need to do about it? I want to refer back to the External Affairs and Additional Legislation Committee's report of last February or March, 'Wales’ future relationship with Europe—Part one: a view from Wales'. By the way, that was a hint—part 2 is coming out on Thursday. Recommendation 16 we had was: 

'We recommend that the Welsh Government sets out in its response to this report, what discussions it has had on Wales’ future relationship with the Committee of the Regions after Brexit and how those discussions are progressing.'

And this is the response we had from the Welsh Government—I hope the Minister might be able to expand on some of the comments in here:

'The Welsh Government supports the principle of a continued relationship between the UK and the Committee of the Regions (CoR) and the detailed discussions already underway as to the shape of the relationship.'

So, perhaps we can have some confirmation as to how far they've now gone.

'In the transition period, we have expressed our support to the establishment of a joint Committee of the Regions-UK Commission which would if adopted by the CoR include twelve members from the CoR and twelve from the UK.'

But, again, we need to know if that is still the position of Welsh Government, and if so, what pressures are they putting on the UK representation to ensure that there's Welsh representation on that delegation. 

The Welsh Government also states:

'We also agree with the proposal of a permanent political forum for North-West Europe after transition which should include representatives from each of the Devolved Administrations.'

So, again, this is last May. What progress has been made on these three points in the response to our part 1 report?

It's important we now also—. I support Darren Millar's comment about separation from Assembly and Welsh Government. I note that my other remaining comments will be on Welsh Government, but it is important that the Assembly has its own position in European institutions. And I appreciate very much, Llywydd, the response you gave to the committee, which highlighted some of those things. Perhaps we need to see how much more work we can do and who else we can explore to work with as an Assembly, particularly legislatures across Europe in particular regions. I know you've had discussions with the Basques and the Catalonians, for example. We may want to—. And that will be very helpful for us as well, because there are two separate groups here: there's an Assembly relationship and there's a Welsh Government relationship, and it is important. We must remember that the two representatives may be appointed by the First Minister, but they are representing the Assembly at that Committee of the Regions, not the Welsh Government. Why? Because, again, if you read the papers from the Committee of the Regions, and we were given some, when we met with the president of the Committee of the Regions yesterday, relating to Brexit, and their voice is very clear in that they want the discussions between the UK Government and the EU to come also to a position where we can have an agreement on a joint committee between the Committee of the Regions and the UK. Now, my concern, then, is that what we were told was most of these—[Inaudible.]—with third countries happen on a once-a-year basis. So, that's a loss of access in one sense, but it's the informal connections we'll get as a consequence of that, and perhaps you will look at how we can get sub-committees as a consequence to work on it. So, that is important—very much indeed. 

What we were told yesterday, and this is quite clear—the president told us, without reservation: it's up to the Welsh Government to lead on the ask. They weren't going to lead; they wanted the Welsh Government to take the lead. So, in a sense, if we really want to get involved, the Welsh Government has to step up to the plate and put forward its proposals.

Will you give way? Does he recall the emphasis also placed on having UK Government support for what we want to do? And does the Member believe that's something we can obtain to ensure Wales can keep the connections he wishes? 

Yes, it is important, the UK Government support, because, clearly, the UK Government at the moment is still a member state and will be seen as the main body in one sense. But what they did identify was that—. There are two points to that: is Wales able to have an influence within the UK argument, in the sense of what we've always talked about—a Council of Ministers or replacing the JMC with something more formal? But they did indicate that was a UK issue and they didn't want to get involved in that. But there also is a point that the UK Government needs also to get involved, because they are, at the moment, at member state level and that's who they are in discussions as far as some of these positions, because the structures are from state to state. So, that was the formalisation process. But it is important that, if Welsh Government wants to get involved, Welsh Government must start asking for this.

I also want to highlight one thing, because this is important. We also met with other officials, who clearly stated that, during the years that the Welsh Government has had a presence in Brussels, they have been very effective in what is known as soft diplomacy, and they are now being recognised for that work. What's more, they are being sought out as people who have gone that far, because, for many others—. As a member state, you're automatically included. As Wales, we actually began to act as a third country, in a sense, and we built that soft diplomacy up. And that was a very clear direction in which we needed to go. So, this relationship with the Committee of the Regions is another mechanism to continue that soft diplomacy and, therefore, I would urge the Welsh Government to pursue this and I recommend this report to the Welsh Government.

I've also just come back from a hugely interesting and thought-provoking visit with the EAAL committee to Brussels and, as has been said, we had the privilege of meeting the president of the Committee of the Regions there, as well as the fantastic Mairead Mcguinness, MEPs and ambassadors. In many of these meetings, we were given a bleak impression of the loss of influence that the UK and, even more so, Wales will suffer with the advent of Brexit. Another committee member likened this inverted progress to that of a decision maker moving to a lobbyist, and this is a real danger.

I haven't spoken in this Chamber before about Brexit and I don't hesitate to say how personally devastating I find the prospect of Wales losing her voice in sister conversations in Europe. So, we must make progress where we can. Indeed, the purpose of the committee's visit to Brussels was to examine the kind of relationship that Wales should hope to build with EU institutions and nations after the end of March. I cannot stress enough how vital it is that Wales cements and nurtures strong alliances and the Committee of the Regions is an obvious mechanism for furthering that aim.

Ivan Rogers has said that, for every country in Europe, its relationship with the EU is its most important strategic relationship. For us, in Wales, that fact isn't about to change. Our geography isn't about to change and I certainly hope and trust that our cultural ties will not change. But we know that the impact of Brexit will not be felt in the same way across all parts of these islands. That is particularly the case in Wales and especially the case in certain parts of Wales, including my region in the south-east. Indeed, as we've already heard today, some of these effects have already been felt with the closure of Honda's plant in Swindon and the likely impact that will have on the Kasai plant in Merthyr Tydfil, where 200 people work. We simply cannot afford to lose these jobs, and I will be doing all I can to work with interested parties in order to save them.

Brexit will have, as this report notes, an asymmetrical impact. So, our diplomacy too should probably be asymmetrical. As things stand, the mechanism seen in the Committee of the Regions—of devolved legislatures having a direct voice in the conversations of EU institutions—is not replicated on a UK level. That is why I would applaud the recommendation to establish a joint commission between that committee and the UK to ensure that this mechanism is not lost, and I hope that the Assembly endorses that recommendation too.

We should, without doubt, be looking to maintain associate representation on the committee. It's dismaying that, to date, so much diplomacy has been trusted to the UK Government to do on our behalf. Wales needs to keep our voice heard loudly and clearly. We can't trust another Government to do that for us. That is particularly true of a Government that is regarded with such bewilderment and horror as Westminster is in Europe at the moment. That lack of clarity that Westminster is giving to Europe is a huge issue. As one person we met put it: 'When you're sailing, you need to see the land in order to steer properly.' For so many of the EU institutions who want to work with us—and there's a willingness for that—they can see only water. That is why we need to affirm our commitment to finding a way of continuing to work with the Committee of the Regions. Wales can't afford to lose her voice. Diolch.

I call on the Minister for International Relations and the Welsh Language, Eluned Morgan.

Thank you, Llywydd. May I first of all thank Mick Antoniw and Bethan Sayed for their report on the relationship between Wales and the Committee of the Regions? And may I congratulate Delyth Jewell on her appointment as spokesperson for Plaid Cymru on international relations?

Now, I have been aware of the work of this committee over a lengthy period of time, and I think it’s a European institution that represents a unique voice of regions, nations such as Wales, and local authorities across the European Union, and I do appreciate the commitment that our Members are giving in representing Wales there.

Since the result of the referendum, the Welsh Government has been clear that although Wales may leave the European Union, we are not leaving Europe, and, therefore, it makes sense for us to develop ongoing relations with the relevant organisations and institutions within the European Union, as well as networks and relations with other regions, so that we don’t lose that successful collaboration, as we’ve heard from so many speakers, which has developed over the years.

Now, in the past, these relationships have proved to be valuable and have enabled us to have an influence on the development of policy at a European level, but also to learn from other regions in order to help to improve our own policies here in Wales. It’s clear that formal membership of the UK of the Committee of the Regions will cease once the UK withdraws from the European Union, and this is true if we succeed to reach an agreement or if we leave with no deal.

The Welsh Government is of the view that it makes sense to look at what opportunities exist to nurture an ongoing relationship between the UK and the Committee of the Regions, and I’m aware that our representatives have been active in negotiations on establishing this commission jointly between the Committee of the Regions and the UK during any transition period that may follow a deal.

If such a structure were to be developed, of course, this would have to be agreed by the Committee of the Regions, but I would be very eager to ensure devolved representation in the UK delegation and I would expect that the three devolved administrations should be in place to nominate one representative to that committee. We also agree that there is room to further look at a proposal to create an ongoing political forum for the north-west of Europe following any agreement, and that should include representatives from each of the devolved bodies.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

Now, I understand that a proposal along the lines of investigating the establishment of a north-west Europe economic forum, which was mentioned by Mick Antoniw, is under consideration by the Committee of the Regions at the moment, and I look forward to the outcome of the committee's decision, which, of course, will take place after the UK's exit from the European Union. I was really interested to speak to Sir Albert Bore in a phone meeting I had with him last week precisely on this matter—about what that could look like and what are the models that exist for that kind of example for us to follow. 

Turning to the recommendations made in Mick and Bethan's report, I'm pleased to confirm that, since the referendum in 2016, Ministers and officials have continued to explore how established relationships can be developed to further benefit Wales. I absolutely endorse the point that we have built up so much goodwill over the years, so much soft power, that it would be a huge mistake to throw that away. And I can also confirm that the First Minister is seeking to meet with the Committee of the Regions president during his forthcoming meeting to Brussels.

Now, I recently announced that the Welsh Government will be developing a new international strategy, and in the course of that consultation, we'll be looking to determine which of the many European networks, listed in appendix A of the document, we will want to prioritise in terms of future relationships between Wales and the European Union. And as that clock keeps ticking down towards the UK's exit from the EU, I think it's essential that we send out a strong message that, even if we do leave the EU and its institutions, we are absolutely determined to ensure that we remain on good terms and that we're determined to enhance and to continue to develop our relationships with our nearest neighbours on the continent.

That sub-member-state level of governance will have, we hope, a key role in ensuring that those friendships will continue. We will make every effort to ensure that a Welsh European voice will be heard loud and clear across the continent. I'm happy to report that the Government is happy to support the motion in full. 

Thank you. I call on Bethan Sayed to reply to the debate. Bethan.

Diolch yn fawr iawn. I know that time is short. Thank you to Mick Antoniw for introducing our report and for putting forward eloquently the discussions that we've had and the conclusions that we've come to in relation to the work that we have sought to do in the limited capacity that we've had in relation to our representation on the Committee of the Regions. I welcome everybody's contributions here today, especially the recognition of the fact that, in whatever guise it is, we need to continue working with the European Union but also work with other countries on a worldwide basis to show that Wales is truly an internationalist community of communities. 

I would take issue with one thing that Darren Millar did say in terms of our potential to work with Europe. Yes, we can work in different ways and different networks, but we have a formal relationship now. We are formal members and we have that capacity, as I did two weeks ago, to stand up in the Senedd in Brussels and speak and tell people what we are doing here in Wales to promote our nation, to promote our values. We simply won't have that opportunity under more informal structures, but I appreciate that that will have to happen. It's how we do that when we won't have those same very privileged structures that we've had. I make the analogy of how we've been able to network, how we've been able to bring nuggets of ideas back into this institution, back to benefit Wales, and how we will have to find new ways of doing that. [Interruption.]—I haven't got time. I've literally not got time. We can continue these discussions afterwards.

In relation to what the Minister has said about one member of any joint commission, I would be urging her to consider more than one. What's been good is having a diversity of opinion of myself and Mick Antoniw. We have similar thoughts but we may differ on other things. I think having that diversity of opinion on an international or European level is something to be promoted and supported, and perhaps even more important post Brexit so that we can have a strength of representation on that level. You mentioned that the First Minister is seeking a meeting with the president of the Committee of the Regions. I would urge you to tell us, as soon as that seeking process is over, that you're having that meeting, because when we were in Brussels recently there was an absolute urgency to ensure that processes are in place post March. I can't underestimate how valuable it has been, even though I've only been to a few meetings, to be able to engage positively. 

After I spoke in the European Parliament two weeks ago, I had a Google Translate conversation on my phone with an Italian Minister. My Italian is non-existent and his English or Welsh is non-existent, and he said, 'We didn't leave the EU, you chose to leave the EU', and I said, 'We want to still continue working with you and keep the doors open.' I think that's the message we all have to have here today: moving on, we want to keep that door open, we want to engage. This report that we've brought to you today is important to ensure that we find different ways to engage positively and that we work not only calling on Welsh Government, but that the National Assembly for Wales as an institution has its own ways of engaging so that we can become strong in the world as a nation in our own right as well. Diolch yn fawr iawn to everybody for contributing.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.