1. What discussions has the Welsh Government had with the Welsh Rugby Union in light of reports of a major overhaul of the professional game in Wales? 284
Thank you very much. You will have heard me replying succinctly, briefly, about our relationship in response to an earlier question, so I can confirm that I have had regular meetings with the Welsh Rugby Union and, indeed, have discussed with them their development plans and their business model, including regional restructuring. However, I would emphasise that it is not my intention in Government, nor the intention of the rest of the Government for that matter, because we have discussed this at some length—we have no intention at all of being involved directly in any of the current discussions, and we shouldn't be. I do believe it is very important that, in matters of culture and sport, we maintain the arm's-length principle, which allows for independent businesses and independent organisations, whether in sport or in culture, to conduct their business as they think fit.
On your sentiment there, Minister, I do fully agree with you. The governance of the game in Wales is completely in the hands of the Welsh Rugby Union, and so should be the case. But I think many fans are punch-drunk by some of the developments that have happened, and I saw just a couple of minutes ago a news report saying that the merger is off the table. But from the grass roots right up to international level, there is grave concern over the current proposals that have been put forward—whether they would be lasting, whether they would be durable. Again, I reiterate the point: I'm not calling on the Welsh Government to indicate that they've been involved in these discussions, but I would have thought that the Welsh Government would have a view as to how they would like to see the Welsh game develop given the strength of grass-roots rugby and, obviously, the implications for many of the messages that Welsh Government brings out about sport and inclusivity. And so, given that the Welsh Government put £853,000, I think, into the game, can you assure us that you will keep a watching brief on this particular subject? You did, in your earlier answer, indicate that you had had thoughts about the Irish model; are those personal thoughts of yours or are they thoughts that have been developed by the Government as maybe a solution to some of the challenges that the Welsh game faces?
No, those were very much personal thoughts. Also, it's an obvious personal thought of mine that I would like to see professional rugby in the north of Wales, and have wished to see that happen for many years. I'm now having to be at arm's length from myself and that particular view, but that will be no surprise to you. But what I would say is that there has been no discussion, but there has been very close involvement by our senior officials in ensuring that we were fully informed of the implications of what the Welsh Rugby Union is discussing. But, obviously, there would have to be a—. We have had a discussion, I should say, with Nigel Short of the pro rugby board and others, so we are aware of their intentions, but it's not at this stage that Welsh Government would be involved in any of the consequences. But I think, as I indicated in the earlier discussion, there might be a call on our resources, as we have done in the past, for investing in infrastructure in areas that would benefit from that in order to develop not just rugby but other sports. For example, we have invested substantially, as I indicated, in 3G facilities and in all-weather pitches in the north, and we've done it in Wrexham as well as in Eirias Park.
Minister, I thank you for the answer you've just given. Clearly, the message we're now getting is that the merger is off, but we often talk about the two rugby teams, the Ospreys and the Scarlets, and we just think of those two teams, but there's a lot more behind the scenes than just those two teams on the pitches. The Ospreys have embraced the regional concept very much and they work with our local communities. They have Ospreys in the Community, they go and meet with the schools, they work with science, technology, engineering and mathematics groups and organisations to promote STEM and other career pathways. There is a lot more going on. They're actually one of the best at women's rugby in the area. They do a lot more than simply what we see with the 15 players on the field. And they are issues that the Government should be involved with, and it's the funding you give to the Welsh Rugby Union that feeds into that.
So, I think it is important the Government has a say on this to ensure that the services that the Ospreys currently give to the communities aren't lost. Because if the Ospreys disappear, Scarlets are going to have their own commitments already. They haven't got the funding to go beyond that, so what will happen to our region and those community services? And, therefore, the Government will need to look very carefully at what that actually means to the local communities—not just the fans, but the people who live in the area, the children in the area, the schoolchildren they get support from. And I'll declare an interest: my granddaughter actually very often goes to the Ospreys camps in her holiday time. These are services that people get a huge lot out of, and the Welsh Government should be looking at what happens to those as well.
Thank you very much for expressing that so forcefully, David. Certainly, it is our intention as a Government to ensure that any programmes that involve community engagement, any programme that develops women's rugby, under 20 rugby, youth rugby—all those commitments are commitments that have been made to us by the WRU, centrally, and it is the WRU, therefore, that is responsible at the moment that that commitment should be delivered. And I will certainly speak with them about this because, clearly, if there are to be any differences, any developments in the structure of the regions, whereas that matter is a matter for regions to discuss, where commitments have being made and public funding has been invested through Sport Wales into the Welsh Rugby Union, then I can assure you that we will pursue the constant delivery of that commitment.
Very much in the same frame, actually—I declare an interest as an Ospreys season ticket holder. Very much in the same frame as David Rees, the Ospreys is more than the 15 guys on the pitch. There's a whole umbrella of teams from under eight upwards, of both sexes, playing all the time, not just at half time during Ospreys home matches. It is really a huge community event, which totally reflects my region. I mean, it's called South Wales West in this place; it's actually 'Ospreylia'. It's the same boundary. So, we've been through one painful reorganisation, which you alluded to in your earlier answer, in 2002, when, as Swansea fans, we had to overcome our natural antipathy towards Neath fans, and later on Bridgend joined as well. So, we've been through a painful process, and it is overwhelmingly a community concern, like it is now. People are absolutely in a state of bewilderment and devastation that this has just happened. Ospreys is the most successful region—not just Welsh region, but most successful region in Pro12, Pro14 terms, with four championship victories. That's why people feel so terrible and devastated it's come out of the blue. Because we'll all be, in a couple of weeks' time, glowing in the reflected glory of another Grand Slam for the Welsh rugby union team, so why we need this now when the boys are on their way to Scotland for the next leg—it's something we can do without. It is most destabilising on Alun Wyn Jones—Osprey—Justin Tipuric—Osprey—Adam Beard—Osprey—George North—Osprey—who will be playing on Saturday—
We all know who the members of the team are. We don't need them rehearsed here.
And as the Llywydd will remember, when Wales beat England in Twickenham for the first time in 20 years in 2008, 13 out of the 15 players that day were Ospreys. So, I'll just leave it there in terms of—. But it would be good to reflect this overwhelming community concern about a potentially devastating merger—on, off, whatever—in any consultations you have with the WRU. And in particular, the long-term concern has always been there's an overwhelming lack of money in Wales, compared to France, compared to England. We know that. It's what to do about that. And why does it happen now during a vitally important six nations championship? Diolch yn fawr.
Thank you, again, for that forceful expression. I made the comparison with Ireland precisely for the reasons you've been pursuing in that discussion. We need to have a serious look about what structure is required to make rugby in Wales, at whatever level—at the community level, at the youth level, at the women's level, which I obviously strongly encourage, but also at the international level, the six nations—we are now doing really well at that level. Obviously, I wish them well in Scotland—not always an easy place to take a Grand Slam march through, as it were. But, because there has been such clear concern expressed by Members in the Chamber—I'm well aware of the public concern—I will make sure that I will seek an early opportunity to speak formally with the Welsh Rugby Union about this. But I think it's best if I wait until the discussions that are currently going on are resolved, if they are to be resolved, and I hope that they will be resolved very soon.
Can I associate myself with everything said by Dai Lloyd and David Rees? What I would like also to say, of course, is that the seventy-fifth biggest company in the SA region is the Ospreys. The eighty-fourth biggest company in the SA region is the Scarlets. We're talking about major employers. Many of my constituents have been worried, since it was talked about, that they would not have a job. And relocating to north Wales to be a ticket salesperson, I would suggest, is not really on the cards, and Llanelli will have more than they'll need if there's a merger anyway. So, what I'm saying is: will the Welsh Government look at this from an economic point of view, as opposed to a sporting point of view—and my interest in sport is well known, I think, to almost everybody in this room, but, from an economic point of view, and also the economic benefit that my constituency gets, having the Liberty stadium there, from events taking place there, from the rugby matches taking place there, the 8,000 to 10,000 people who turn up, who bring money into the area for the benefit of our local economy? Our local economy in Swansea cannot afford to lose jobs, it cannot afford to lose people coming in and spending money. Will the Welsh Government look at this from the economic point of view? I'm very upset from a sports view, and very upset, as David Rees is, from the point of view of providing support within the community, but what I'm more worried about is people losing their jobs, and a loss of employment and a loss of money in my constituency.
Thank you very much for that. I can confirm that the official who has been acting on my behalf in this area clearly understands the economic implications, because the head of sport is also involved in regional development—not exactly in the same area, but in south Wales. So, I will re-emphasise in further discussions, both with other officials in Government, and with him, and in my forthcoming discussions with the Welsh Rugby Union, that these matters will be properly addressed. And this of course relates to what David asked earlier about the social programme and the community programme. Rugby is a form of culture, as well as a major sport in Wales, clearly, and therefore we must look at all aspects of what we do. Because, on the one hand, we can't talk about the benefit of sport to the community and yet allow the community to be denuded of some of that direct benefit when changes like this are being contemplated. I only wish that these sorts of discussions—as many Members have echoed—should be happening at another time, and not during the heights of the rugby season at this moment.
I thank the Deputy Minister.