7. Debate on the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee report: Inter-Institutional relations agreement between the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Government

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:05 pm on 6 March 2019.

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Photo of Mick Antoniw Mick Antoniw Labour 4:05, 6 March 2019

Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'm very grateful for the detailed contributions that have been made by the members of the committee and by Dai Rees, the Chair of EAAL, and also for the very detailed response from the Government.

I don't delude myself, and I think none of us do, that these constitutional and structural arrangements arouse enormous interest, either in members of the public or, quite often sometimes, when I look around the Chamber, Members of the Chamber as well. So, I can tell you that the eight minutes and 30 seconds I've got left to close this debate—I will not use all of it. I'll not subject you to it. I don't think I've ever knocked a door where a member of the public has come to the door and said to me, 'Can you tell me what the latest situation is with the intergovernmental institutional arrangements and the joint ministerial council, please?' But the very nature of these things is that they are important because they create the framework in which the power that we exercise in this Chamber on behalf of the people of Wales is actually held to account—the way in which we in this Assembly hold Government to account in an environment where we have seen considerable transfers of powers.

These are the very same issues that have led to the very important development of interparliamentary arrangements, where we meet on a regular basis with our common committees on justice, constitutional affairs—with Westminster, the House of Lords and with Scotland. We face exactly the same issues because, as we know, there has been a considerable transfer of powers—Henry VIII powers—powers that were often being exercised with very limited scrutiny. And I think everyone would mutually agree that that is not a healthy situation in a democratic Parliament, in a democratic society, but it is a consequence of what is happening around Brexit, and these frameworks have been created to maximise the opportunity that elected Members have to hold the exercise of those powers to account. And what has been very important within this process—and I give credit to the Government on this—is that there is a mutual recognition that we are in an environment where there has to be accountability, there has to be transparency to the maximum extent, and that is what this agreement seeks to achieve.

There are undoubtedly many challenges along the way, and I do not underestimate the challenges that Government faces within that. Our job as a committee and our job as an Assembly is to hold Government to account—the way Government exercises its powers—and there are some very important reasons why that must take place. For example, in the area, now, of international treaties, which I know other parliamentary bodies are looking at, we had recently, of course, the Scottish judgement in the continuity legislation issue that went to the Supreme Court, where clearly it is recognised that international treaties are reserved to the UK Government, but the implementation of those treaties in devolved areas are matters for the devolved Governments and for the bodies elected to undertake that. So, where Government now has to engage with—and we see this consistently now in Bills that are coming forward as a result of Brexit—. So, where Governments are having to engage in discussions and consultations over those periods, which will lead to binding agreements, effectively binding legislation on this Assembly, the only opportunity we will actually have is through agreements like this that enable us to actually have access to see what is being proposed, what proposals are being developed, to enable us to actually scrutinise that, to make input, and to actually give voice to the people of Wales through this Assembly in those processes.

So, it is about the accountability of the exercise of power, and this agreement is before the Assembly today to ensure that it is on record, that it is formally recognised for what it is and that that is the framework within which Government and this Assembly will operate over the coming very difficult months and, undoubtedly, years. Thank you, Deputy Llywydd.