4. What use has been made by the Welsh Government of plotting the journeys of those commuting to Newport and Cardiff by car as a way of informing future public transport provision? OAQ53618

I'm pleased to be able to tell the Member that we have used mobile phone data to inform transport modelling. We've commissioned Transport for Wales to procure an update to the previous data, supplementing other sources, such as congestion data, traffic flows and public transport passenger counts, and this will help us to understand travel patterns and to develop multimodal interventions across south Wales and, indeed, beyond.

That’s very interesting, and I’m very glad to hear that we are using the easily available data to track the future transport needs in the area east of Cardiff, between Cardiff and Newport, because, clearly, there is a major congestion problem that we face in both our cities and, at the moment, there is a gap in the metro map north-east and east of Cardiff where we obviously are going to need future provision. And in your answer to Leanne Wood, you said that, obviously, there’s a commitment by the Government to do this. So, having got all this important data from the mobile phones, how exactly are you using this to commission work by Transport for Wales and by the Cardiff capital region to get in place the transport that we need now to get people out of their cars, so they're not poisoning us all with air pollution?

Can I thank the Member for her question? I should just say that the mobile phone data is just one source of information that we’ve used to inform our transport modelling work, and not just transport modelling work with regard to road investments and rail, but also with regard to bus services. Other data that we use comes from roadside interviews and, as I said earlier, from public transport passenger surveys and, indeed, from bus and rail ticket data.

We're using it to assess the extendability of the metro and to ensure that investment in extended services is invested in the right place for passengers who could and would use metro services as an alternative to the private car. But we're also using that data to plan future bus services and to ensure that current bus services are meeting the needs of existing passengers.

I should just say, though, in Newport—I know that neither of the local Members are here themselves, but they have relayed to me on numerous occasions the fact that just urging people to move from cars to buses in Newport will not alleviate congestion on the M4, because largely the congestion caused within Newport is not because people are using their private car as an alternative to the bus, it's because they simply can't rely on bus services in many situations, because there's too much congestion within Newport, and indeed there's a belief that people who are currently using the M4 are coming off from the south or the north side of Newport and then using the M4 to get to the other side. That's not the case either, and that's shown by some of the modelling and the data that we've been able to extract.

I'm glad the Minister has learnt that lesson, and I agree with what he's just said. In terms of Cardiff, I think the south Wales metro offers a great opportunity for increasing public transport use instead of car use as employment is increasingly concentrated at the centre of Cardiff. But for Newport, the employment is disproportionately in business parks strung out along the current M4, and isn't the Minister correct in at least implying that what's really needed to help people to get to work around Newport, whether by car or by bus, is to get on with building that M4 relief road?

In conjunction with the development of the metro and in ensuring that we also have adequate parkways that can serve both. I think that the investment that we are making at Llanwern and, indeed, on the Cardiff parkway shows that we are determined to meet the needs of motorists and of people who use public transport, and to encourage, wherever and whenever possible, a modal shift.