I wanted to say, 'Well, I used to teach higher education international students, from within the EU and outside the EU,' and I was going to say about what great relationships I had with those students, but I didn't want to go any further then, following what Bethan Sayed was saying. [Laughter.]

The students that contributed to my courses brought a whole range of different experiences and backgrounds, and you can see in one classroom, whether they're European Union or non-European Union, the value that these students bring to our economy, and of course, also—Universities Wales has commissioned research—they also come and spend money here, and they have a value directly into the economy on which we rely.

I wanted to concentrate on recommendations 1, 2 and 7. With regard to recommendation 1, in the response the Minister has said 'accept in principle' to what Suzy Davies recognised as quite an innovative approach, and we should see if we can take this further anyway—proactively demand executive powers for Welsh Ministers over spatially different immigration rules for students and academic staff. I think that's an innovative approach, and it recognises the kind of devolution settlement we might want to see collectively in the future, apart from, of course, Michelle Brown, who is not supporting recommendation 1 by her absence today. I think we can be quite innovative about this. Suzy Davies would say—I'm not party political for the sake of being so, but I do have to note what the Minister says in her response to recommendation 1:

'Our aim is to ensure the Welsh economy is not adversely affected by an overly restrictive migration system and that Welsh Universities are able to meet their future staffing and student needs.'

Well, yes. The UK Government has now got this White Paper and the Bill going through on immigration, but I don't share our Chair's optimism that it will lead to any better policy, because I have to say, Theresa May, as Home Secretary, introduced incredibly restrictive immigration practices for international students outside the EU, and all I can think is that those incredibly restrictive practices will be imposed on EU students now. So, it won't be the fact that we will be able to offer international students outside the EU the same equality that EU students enjoy now; quite the opposite. Those EU students will be closed down as a result of UK Government policy, and therefore I think recommendation 1 should still hold, and still has a lot to recommend it. 

With regard to recommendation 2, the Minister accepts in principle and says that universities are 'independent, autonomous bodies'—that they are, that they are—and therefore it would be inappropriate to commission this study. But when it comes to, say, housing, that wouldn't stop us commissioning a study. Housing companies are independent, autonomous bodies, but it doesn't stop us commissioning a study as to why houses aren't being built. I don’t see why we cannot support the university sector—some would say the more worthy university sector—as it’s currently structured, by commissioning studies into how students will be affected by the consequences of Brexit. I would urge the Minister to reconsider on that ground, particularly in terms of the parameters that are imposed on her with regard to continued participation in Erasmus+ post Brexit. 

Which brings me to recommendation 7, which is about Erasmus+. The vice-chancellor of Cardiff University, Professor Colin Riordan, has called on the UK Government to create an alternative back-up scheme, but, with 'no deal' Brexit looming, and looming ever closer every day, it appears that that will be in vain.

Let’s focus on what the Welsh Government can do. The report notably places the blame for an unwillingness to engage on the European Commission and the response from the Government on the European Commission and calls for the UK Government to urgently set aside funds for an alternative to Erasmus+. Can I ask the Cabinet Secretary? She said she’s awaiting responses from the Government to the House of Lords' committee's report. This is changing daily; perhaps she’s had an update since. But can she also tell us, in addition to what has happened since she wrote her letter to us on 15 March, what engagement she has had with the European Commission? Maybe we should bypass the UK Government and go to the European Commission directly on the principle of subsidiarity—those decisions taken relevant to those areas in which they have most effect. Has she considered that as a process and a decision?

I think the report, as it’s presented, is a good one, and I think it gives us a very clear insight into the problems faced by higher education as a result of Brexit.