The European Council Meeting

Emergency Question – in the Senedd on 26 March 2019.

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Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour

(Translated)

Will the First Minister make a statement following the conclusion of the European Council meeting held on 21 and 22 March? (EAQ0006)

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:30, 26 March 2019

It is some comfort that the EU 27 have given a narrow window to avoid the catastrophe of a 'no deal' Brexit. I strongly welcome Parliament's vote to take back control at this time of crisis. The Prime Minister must abandon her disastrous red lines and listen. The extra time must be used wisely, to break the deadlock and find a majority in Parliament for a soft form of Brexit, as we set out in 'Securing Wales' Future'. Failing that, the public must decide the way forward.

Photo of David Rees David Rees Labour

Thank you for that answer, Counsel General. And it's very interesting the last comment that you just made, but, clearly, last week we saw the Speaker of the House of Commons making it quite clear that the Prime Minister couldn't take back the motion, which hadn't been amended anyway whatsoever. She went to the European Council on 21 and 22 March, making a request for an extension, though, as the First Minister indicated yesterday, they had not seen what that request was. She spent the weekend in chaos, talking to Brexiteers in her private dwelling in Chequers. And, yesterday, she actually laid a statutory instrument asking for the extension, or change of date to the exit, again without informing the devolved nations that she was doing so. It is total chaos. And she last night lost the vote again in the Commons.

As you say, it is pleasing to see that the European Council, and Parliament, is now taking action to take back control of this whole process, because the Prime Minister has totally run out of ideas—well, she only had one, and it's not going anywhere, is it? And she's also now running out of time. But the extension you've talked about is only two weeks and, in two weeks' time, we could be facing the same situation, where we could be leaving without a deal. Do you agree, therefore, that it's essential she now commits to take this forward, she needs to actually work with other parties, she needs to look and be actually co-operating with other groups to see if we can get the best deal possible? And if that fails, she should go back to the people and ask for a general election, so that we can actually get a voice on this and get this Government, which is in total failure, out.

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:32, 26 March 2019

Well, I couldn't agree more with the Member when he says that this is a disaster of the Prime Minister's making. What is astounding to me, and I'm sure to Members generally, is that, three days away from the day that was intended to be exit day, we see this level of chaos in Parliament, with Government Ministers resigning last night, and Parliament wresting back control. It's incumbent now on the Prime Minister to listen to the will of Parliament and to take that forward. Had she adopted an approach from the start that had reached out across the House of Commons, to seek a different kind of Brexit, we would not be in this situation now.

If she chooses to persist in seeking the narrowest possible coalition for her approach to Brexit, she will fail. If that gets her across the line—and I doubt that it will—in relation to a third vote, even if that were to happen, it is a very, very unstable basis for tackling the legislative task that lies ahead to ensure an orderly Brexit, and it would be deeply irresponsible of her to do that. We have been very clear that what needs to happen is for Parliament to seek a much broader basis for the discussions ahead and for the political declaration to be renegotiated along the lines that we have called for here in this Assembly, which has been endorsed several times, and as described in 'Securing Wales' Future'. That could be done quickly, it would not require the renegotiation of the withdrawal agreement, and it could be done within the sorts of time frames currently being discussed with the European Union. And if that fails, then, as I made clear earlier, our position is that the public must have their say.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative 1:33, 26 March 2019

I have to say, Brexit Minister, I'm very disappointed that you've been criticising the Prime Minister. While you and others in this Chamber, and elsewhere—[Interruption.]

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:34, 26 March 2019

Allow the Member to be heard, please.

Photo of Darren Millar Darren Millar Conservative

While you and others in this Chamber and elsewhere are hellbent on doing absolutely everything you can to frustrate Brexit and prevent it from happening, the Prime Minister is working hard to honour the outcome of the European Union referendum in June 2016 and to deliver an orderly Brexit that protects jobs, protects the environment and keeps people safe. Now, I, for one, applaud the Prime Minister for securing a short extension to article 50. It's a very sensible thing to do in the current circumstances, and, of course, it gives people more time to reflect on her deal, and the alternative options to that. Now, you may well want to criticise the differences of opinion in the Conservative Party, but at least Conservatives do the right thing and resign from the Government benches when they have a difference of opinion with the Government, unlike your health Minister sat just down the row from you on the front bench. [Interruption.]

So, let me be clear: Wales voted to leave the EU, and leave the EU we must. Both the UK and Welsh Governments must respect that decision and must work together to deliver on the outcome of the referendum. The people of Wales did not vote for further European elections. They did not vote for long periods of uncertainty. They want this uncertainty to come to an end. They took part in the biggest democratic exercise in the history of the United Kingdom and the outcome of their decision to leave in that referendum must be implemented. So, I ask you, will the Welsh Government now do the right thing for our country, put party politics aside—[Interruption.]—honour the promise, which your party has made in manifesto documents to deliver on the referendum result, and get behind the only deal that has been negotiated with the EU and agreed with the EU, which is the Prime Minister's deal, so that we can get on, deliver Brexit and honour the result of the referendum? 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:36, 26 March 2019

The Member has about as much support in this Chamber for his position as the Prime Minister has in the House of Commons for hers. [Interruption.] It is quite extraordinary, the day after we see resignations galore from the UK Government in order to vote against the whip, that at least the Prime Minister can count on the unswerving loyalty of Darren Millar. [Interruption.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru

I can't hear the Brexit Minister. Allow the Brexit Minister to be heard, please. 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

The reason we are in this pickle is entirely the Prime Minister's fault. Had she realised early on that the narrow coalition between the Brexiteers and the DUP and her party was going to get us to this position—one which was completely obvious from the very start—we would not be in this chaotic situation three days before we were intended to leave. The Prime Minister now must do what she has failed to do from the start and show leadership on this issue, reach out across the House of Commons, comply with the will of the House of Commons—she's only in this position because of the abject failure of the Government—and take forward to the EU a deal that both Parliament can support and the EU can support, and which this Government here in Wales has been advocating for two years and more. 

Photo of Delyth Jewell Delyth Jewell Plaid Cymru 1:37, 26 March 2019

Minister, now that the available options are narrowing, I would appreciate clarity about how far the Welsh Government would be willing to go in order to avoid a 'no deal' scenario. There will be a series of indicative votes in Westminster this week, and Plaid Cymru MPs will be prioritising holding a people's vote as the only sustainable way of solving the crisis. But our MPs have also signed a revocation amendment intended to force the UK Government to revoke article 50 if 'no deal' is otherwise inevitable. This would allow us to avert the immediate crisis so that a new path could be found for dealing with the issue of our relationship with the EU, including a post-revocation people's vote with an option to remain for good or to leave on specific terms. Would Welsh Government also support revocation as an emergency call to stop the train of state from careering off a 'no deal' cliff into disaster? And, on that point, could I ask the Minister whether he is among the 3,600 people and counting from the Neath constituency who have signed the petition to revoke article 50?

It's possible, however, that the UK Government will get behind a procedure that would allow it to form a consensus by taking various options off the table one by one until a majority can be formed behind one route. My colleague Jonathan Edwards MP proposed this idea months ago and suggested an alternative votes system could be used to achieve this aim. Finally, if this were to happen and Parliament were able to agree a way forward, does the Welsh Government agree it would be prudent to extend article 50 for however long it takes to renegotiate with the EU on whatever basis is agreed to achieve this? If so, does the Welsh Government agree that this would mean it would be necessary for the UK to take part in the European elections in May? 

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:39, 26 March 2019

Well, I thank the Member for that series of questions. In relation firstly to the point about article 50 and the revocation of article 50, she misrepresents the position, I'm sure unintentionally. The European Court of Justice has been very clear that it is not available to the UK Government to revoke article 50 in order to seek another referendum. It is clear that the only basis on which that can be revoked is if there is a change of approach and that the UK intends to remain as a member state of the European Union. 

In relation to the options provided to Members of Parliament, I hope that Members of Parliament will approach the options in front of them, recognising that no option is likely to lead to a situation where all members of the public are happy with the outcome that is reached. It is a time for constructive compromise in relation to the options that are available. We hope that they will have an opportunity to vote on the kind of Brexit deal that we have been advocating here—of close alignment and strong partnership—and we also hope they'll have an opportunity to vote on another referendum. We have been clear that we will be able to support either of those options on these benches.

Photo of Lynne Neagle Lynne Neagle Labour 1:40, 26 March 2019

Minister, I was very proud on Saturday to March with a million plus citizens of the UK, including many thousands of people from Wales. I'm sure you will also have seen the 5.5 million people who have signed the petition calling for article 50 to be revoked. Given the unprecedented democratic backlash on this issue, would you agree with me that it is now time for the Welsh Government to give full-voiced support to the need for a people's vote on this issue, which would be absolutely about listening to the will of the people now that they have had the opportunity to consider what the Brexit future looks like?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:41, 26 March 2019

Well, I know that the Member has been one of the advocates in our party of this position for some time and I know that she and others were there on Saturday. I also saw the First Minister's message on Saturday, which was clear that the Welsh Government' position is, as it has been, that if Parliament concludes that a second referendum is needed in order for us to get out of this crisis, that we would support that, and that we think, however, given the time that remains, preparations should be taken now, steps to prepare should be taken now, in case that is required. If Parliament takes that path and takes us forward on that basis, then I believe, and the Government believes, as we always have, that Wales would be better off choosing to remain in the European Union. That was the case in 2016 and it remains the case today.

Photo of Mr Neil Hamilton Mr Neil Hamilton UKIP 1:42, 26 March 2019

Would the Counsel General agree with me that we are now in a crisis of democracy? He said at the beginning of this question today that it's incumbent now on the Government to carry out the will of Parliament. But isn't the problem here that Parliament is unwilling to carry out the will of the people? Seventeen point four million people voted to leave the EU in the referendum, but we have an overwhelming majority of Members of Parliament, as indeed an overwhelming majority of Members of this Assembly, who are remainers and are determined, at all costs, to frustrate the decision of the British people in a freely cast referendum two and a half years ago.

Eighty-seven per cent of leavers, in the current opinion poll published today, think that politicians want to stop Brexit, and even 38 per cent of remainers think that politicians want to stop Brexit. Only 19 per cent of the public disagreed with that. Forty-one per cent of the public think we should leave on WTO terms, and only 28 per cent disagree. Fifty-three per cent of the public say that if MPs vote to revoke article 50, it will do irreparable damage to the democratic process. Is this not a case of the professional political class here confronting the people, and there's only one way that that's going to end up in due course?

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour 1:43, 26 March 2019

If I may say, the Member does no service to the complexity of the debate in relation to Brexit. And we are, bluntly, in the position that we are in because for too long people have been promised things that they weren't able to deliver and people have not had politicians describing to them the difficult choices involved in navigating these choppy waters. He attacks Members of Parliament for their roles in this. I think that's incredibly irresponsible, and we saw the Prime Minister doing the same from Downing Street last week.

What ought to have happened from the start is the Prime Minister should have listened to more Members of Parliament rather than fewer. They are engaged in a process of trying to reconcile the outcome of the 2016 referendum to the choices involved in that and how we best navigate a situation where respect is paid to that result, but also the least damage is done to the Welsh and the UK economy. I hope that in the coming days, and I'm sure that in the coming days, Members of Parliament will approach that task in a means that pays respect to the 2016 referendum result but also gets us to a position that reflects the kind of Brexit relationship—the post-Brexit relationship—that we've been advocating for here on these benches for two years or more.

Photo of Alun Davies Alun Davies Labour 1:45, 26 March 2019

Like others, I was very proud to join the million people on the streets of London on Saturday, and I was proud to march behind Lynne Neagle, who was leading a million-strong demand for a fair say and a final say in these matters. I was delighted to hear the health Minister and the Minister for international affairs speaking up for Wales and speaking up for the Welsh Government and Welsh Labour, demanding—demanding—that any deal goes back to the people for a final say. Minister, do you agree with Tom Watson when he spoke on Saturday? He said that the way to unite our country, our Parliaments and our people again is to put these matters back to the people, to a public vote, to enable all of us to take a decision on where we are today and the crisis that's been created by the failure of the United Kingdom Government.

And do you agree with Keir Starmer when he said that any deal that the Prime Minister comes back with has to now go back to the people so that it's the people that take this decision and we unite this country and move away from the divisions that people on the hard right of politics have sought to create and to exploit? And in doing that, the first thing the Welsh Government has to do now is to ensure that we have time—that we have time to take that decision, we have time to consider these issues and we have time to vote on it. Let me say this: I will stand up and speak for my constituents—[Interruption.]—because they elected me to do so. [Interruption.] You have never won an election at all.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:46, 26 March 2019

Stop. There's too much anger in this room at this point and I ask Members to calm down. These are important issues and they need to be discussed and questioned calmly. The Minister to respond, please.

Photo of Jeremy Miles Jeremy Miles Labour

Diolch, Llywydd. Well, in response to the Member, as he will know, it is the position of the Welsh Government that a referendum is one of two means of responding to the situation that we are in. I know that he was there with other colleagues on Saturday advocating for a referendum. We have been clear that if a deal is available that reflects the principles in 'Securing Wales' Future'—one of close partnership and alignment in the future—that is the way forward that we advocate, and in the absence of that, then another referendum will be required in order to take us forward. And that will be the opportunity for people to give their opinion, and we, as a Government, will be advocating that Wales, as it has always been, will be better off as a member of the European Union and we'll be giving that advice to the Welsh people at that point.

Photo of Elin Jones Elin Jones Plaid Cymru 1:47, 26 March 2019

(Translated)

I thank the Counsel General.