The next item is a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government on building safety. I call on the Minister, Julie James.

Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. The Welsh Government is fully committed to making people safer in their homes. We have a strong record in doing just that. Since responsibility for fire was devolved in 2005, the number of fires in dwellings has fallen further and faster in Wales than anywhere else in the UK. That said, we cannot and we will not be complacent. Much evidence has emerged following the tragic fire and failings at Grenfell Tower. Indeed, it continues to do so, and it will be reflected in our approach. 

That evidence includes submissions to the public inquiry, the continuing tests, as well as those so far conducted, on building materials and fire doors, and, of course, the recommendations as part of Dame Judith Hackitt’s review of building regulations and fire safety. Although her review was commissioned by the UK Government and relates to the position in England, we recognise its validity in a Welsh context, not least because, in 2012, we inherited the same system as that in place in England. We therefore recognise Hackitt’s description of a system that is not fit for purpose. That is a damning assessment.

Dame Judith Hackitt was clear in her recommendations that an effective response must be both broad and coherent. This recognises the complexities of the current system, one in which legislation overlaps and roles and responsibilities are often unclear. It is a system typified by inadequate, inconsistent gatekeeping and weak enforcement. It is an environment often characterised by a race to the bottom, by a chase for profits at the expense of standards. There has been a sometimes shocking disregard for the voices and concerns of residents. In short, there is a lot to put right and a recognition that doing so requires a whole-system challenge. We are committed to setting a legislative and policy context that reflects and addresses the risks and the evidence—an approach that will make abundantly clear our firm expectations and supports and drives high standards and full compliance.

Clearly, we need to take our partners with us to make sure our intentions are grounded in experience and reality, that they can be realised. We need effective systems to deliver on our shared aims. As part of that process, the Welsh Government established an expert group last year. It has played a key role in recommending a way forward. In January, I confirmed that I would share the expert group’s road map with you and I was pleased to publish it this week. My immediate response is that it offers a broad and helpful analysis. I would like to place on record my thanks to the group for their time and their lively and careful consideration of a wide range of difficult issues. The group’s composition means we have been able to tap into expertise from across professions and sectors. In turn, the group also benefited from the input of UK and Scottish Government officials, builders, the Health and Safety Executive, academics and others.

For my part, I will now take time to reflect on the group’s recommendations before sharing my response with you in May, as I have previously indicated. I will include, as part of that response, a clear project plan, establishing priorities and timelines for our next steps. It will also take account of work being developed in other parts of the UK but that will be valuable in the Welsh context—for example, the work of the National Fire Chiefs Council in establishing a clearer understanding of risk, and that of the industry response group, identifying industry-led solutions to setting and achieving consistent professional standards.

I have said before that I am committed to finding workable, proportionate solutions, and some of those will draw on work being undertaken at UK level. I do not intend for us to be different for the sake of being different, but I will not hesitate to diverge where we can be more effective and make people safer. An immediate question, then, is: which buildings should be in scope in a new Welsh system? Like many of the issues, this is complicated by numerous factors and currently with little in the way of hard, supporting evidence.

Dame Judith recommended that what she calls ‘higher risk residential buildings’ should be those of 30m or more in height. We are clear that that does not go far enough. In common with England, our work identifying tall buildings took as a starting point the current regulations, which kick in at 18m. Hackitt recommends 30m or taller, and there are other views that would set the bar at 11m, typically four storeys. Height alone, though, does not necessarily tell us enough about risk and particularly about risk to vulnerable people. We will look thoroughly, therefore, at the emerging evidence about risk and the practical implications as we reach a balanced, effective and practicable conclusion.

In terms of buildings in scope and elsewhere, the road map points to several complex areas that will benefit from a more in-depth analysis. I will consider the best way to assess the emerging evidence and frame firm proposals. The decisions we reach will help drive an informed, whole-system solution. It is clear to me, though, that, as we move to the next phase of our work, we are building on strong foundations. Our decision to require all new and converted housing to feature fire-suppression systems was very clearly the right move, and I know that, Deputy Presiding Officer, you'll be particularly pleased to hear me acknowledge that.

One recommendation from the road map that I will accept here and now is that we promote the retrofitting of sprinklers. Hard evidence supports sprinklers’ effectiveness in preventing fatalities. I've asked officials to draw up options for how we can further promote retrofitting in high-rise buildings across sectors.

With our partners, we have previously identified the high-rise residential buildings in Wales, that is, those that are 18m or more. We are now augmenting the database we shared with local authorities with robust information about the coverage in those buildings of sprinkler systems. It is essential that our fire and rescue services and local authorities and others continue to develop and share key information. Indeed, that is a key feature of what Dame Judith Hackitt calls the ‘golden thread’.

As effective as sprinklers can be, we have also looked carefully at the evidence about cladding. Accordingly, we consulted on banning combustible building materials from being used on high-rise residential buildings. Working alongside specialist consultants, we are currently reviewing consultation responses and, more particularly, a number of technical issues they have raised. I anticipate bringing forward amendments to the regulations this summer.

I'm pleased to say that work to remove and replace aluminium composite material cladding continues apace. All identified buildings have now either been remediated or there is activity in train. Leaseholders and residents have not been asked to fund this work. I welcome the role and decisions of responsible building owners and developers in bringing this work towards a conclusion.

Across the system, it is, of course, essential that there is a competent workforce with appropriate capacity. We await the conclusions of the industry response group and its work on competency, but already we’re engaging with Welsh training providers to address the needs of our future system. Providers are developing new courses to improve professionals’ understanding of critical fire safety matters. My officials will continue this dialogue. We are keen that the Welsh Government can both support the necessary work and ensure that it is fully integrated into wider measures to enhance professional competence.

I've referred to the importance we attach to fire-suppression systems. We have long funded our fire and rescue services to carry out safety checks in people’s homes and to provide free equipment such as smoke alarms and fire-resistant bedding. There is ample evidence that these checks save lives and protect property. Every year, the service completes between 50,000 and 60,000 such checks, focusing on those most at risk. 

As I said at the outset, we are far from complacent. We will continue to build on our strong record. Where possible and appropriate, the Welsh Government will take forward immediate or short-term actions. But, as I have said before, some issues will require more in-depth analysis and consideration. In certain cases, that will require and lead to legislative change. Inevitably and properly, this will and absolutely should take time. It’s essential we get it right. You'll be able to see from my detailed response in May and from our project plan, with transparent timescales, that we are moving with the appropriate reflection and pace to bring about truly meaningful change.

I will look forward to putting that information to you, but, in closing today, I want to reiterate my thanks to the expert group for grappling with these difficult, wide-ranging challenges. Their work will help us shape and refine our response to the issues and, ultimately, ensure we keep our residents safe in their homes. Diolch.

Can I thank the Minister for this statement today? And can I, Deputy Presiding Officer, also acknowledge the outstanding contribution that you've made in this field, which has gained international recognition?

I believe that the publication of this expert group's road map is a landmark for everyone concerned to ensure that people living in high-rise buildings are safe and feel safe, and I do hope that the Minister will continuously update the Assembly on the progress the Government now makes towards implementing its recommendations, and we will have a full response in May. This is very important work and does require full analysis. I'm pleased to hear that the Minister has already accepted the panel's recommendations regarding the retrofitting of sprinklers in high-rise buildings, as this is something that was recommended by the Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee's report into fire safety in high-rise buildings. I was part of the committee when it did that work, and I know it has influenced the work of the panel.

Something that's been very clear to me since the tragedy of Grenfell is that the current system simply isn't fit for purpose, as the Minister indeed repeated today, and as the Hackitt report also found. The fact that a tragedy on this scale could happen in the twenty-first century shocked all of us, and focused attention on other high-rise developments across the country, including the private sector—not just the safety of how we design, build and manage high-rise residential buildings, but also how we listen to and respect the views of the people who call a high-rise building home. We in the Conservatives completely agree with the conclusions of both the committee report and the expert panel's report, whose recommendations should now be the basis for a more robust system.

A worrying gap at the moment is the absence of a clear duty holder during the building design and construction process, confusion during hand-over of responsibility once building work is completed, and a confusing overlap on the responsibility of the various regulations. Additionally, I was concerned to find out that there is no clear set of standards or expectations for many of the professions involved in the design and construction of these buildings, or the maintenance of fire safety in occupied buildings, and the capacity issues, which can impair the ability of regulators to undertake their work. These are very serious matters indeed. Yesterday's road map itself states,

'We need to ensure that reform is ambitious and promotes adequate culture change within the sector.'

I think that the fact that many of the recommendations overlap with the committee's report is testament to that need to change culture in regard to safety. Throughout this report, there's a clear need for significant new legislation to deliver on many of the recommendations for change, and it's important that a future legislative programme is coherent. But I do hope it can be done as quickly as possible, paying regard to due diligence of course, and I'm sure the Minister will get the full co-operation of all parties in this Assembly. If that legislation could come in this Assembly, I think that would be a marvellous testament to the urgency we all give this work. But I do realise that's an ambitious call.

As the panel have stated, it will of course take time to get this right, and the Minister is quite correctly looking at all these matters with due seriousness so that we can have the fullest of responses. But the need for interim work is clear, and I do hope that the energy that the Minister indicated this afternoon is taken forward in May, so that we do as much as we can as quickly as we can. For instance, in the first place, reform or merging of databases, and the better engagement of residents—I think that's very important. I was pleased to hear the Minister refer to that a moment ago. I met with representatives of housing associations just this morning, and they indicated that they would be undertaking this engagement exercise as a matter of priority. I hope that that spirit will be seen in the Welsh Government's response also.

To conclude, Deputy Presiding Officer, I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the panel for their thorough work. It's now for us to ensure that the recommendations are taken forward. I know that the Welsh Government can rely on the support of the Conservative group here to get this right, but it does need to be got right quickly. Thank you.

I very much welcome David Melding's contribution. I completely agree with everything he's said. We will be looking to take forward changes to the building regulations—part A, I think it is, of the building regulations—as soon as possible. But, as he acknowledged, we do need to make sure that when we make those changes they are the robust changes that will deliver the system change that we require.

Deputy Presiding Officer, for those Members who have had the chance to see the outline route map, there is, on page 15 of that route map, a quite handy reckoner of the proposed new system for Wales and the various points along that map that we'll want to consider. There are some parts there that will require some legislative change, but others are guidance and other industry standards, and some of it is, as he rightly said, the professional standards that I too was quite shocked to find were not already in the system.

I had the privilege of having a presentation from the building safety expert group who presented their findings to me, and we had a small discussion around it. I was really impressed by both the extent and range and detail of their consideration, but also with the really practical solutions that they were putting forward. These were not gold-plated, don't-move-at-all kind of solutions; these were really practical solutions born out of industry, knowledge and the need to build or retrofit buildings with some speed that then had a resilient system in place that stood the test of time. So, I welcome his comments and I look forward to bringing back detailed proposals about the timescales and so on in May when we make the full response.

I understand that you are going to update us later on in May about the Government's response to the expert group, but I do have a number of questions that I'd like to ask you now. You say that you accept now the recommendation that the retrofitting of sprinklers should be promoted, and you're asking officials to draw up options for further promoting retrofitting in high-rise buildings, but I wonder if you would accept that it isn't just high-rise buildings that we should be promoting retrofitting of. If you do accept that, will you ask your officials to include how they can encourage retrofitting in the PRS as part of the general effort to raise standards there? Will the detailed response in May include SMART targets rather than aspirations? Then, more generally, the UK is one of the few countries where there isn't a compulsory licensing system for builders, which is something that we have had raised with us, so will the Government give consideration in its response as to whether Wales needs to move ahead and start licensing builders and building companies? We know that safety will be compromised when the wrong work is carried out. Diolch.

Thank you for those very important questions indeed. As I hope I made clear in the statement, we haven't decided what the level of risk that we're going to be looking at is. The group has made a number of recommendations that we want to explore. I think I made it clear that I didn't think that Dame Hackitt's recommendation was fit for Wales as it was too high. But, absolutely; a two-storey hospital could have a number of issues attached to it that a four-storey, single-stairwell house might not, and so on. So, we are looking to see what the range of vulnerable residents is and what we might do to promote that. Residential homes and so on clearly fall into different categories. That will be part of my detailed response, going back to where we think we need to take the system. That's what we're looking at.

The road map will then look at the private rented sector and the retrofit, and actually I've got another group looking at decarbonisation of the housing stock in general. So, I'll be looking to see how we can bring the two things together. Because there's a thing here about fire safety, Deputy Presiding Officer, which you'll be very familiar with, but it also includes the kind of insulation that you have and the air ingress into a building and so on. So, actually you can see the synergy between the two reviews and I'll be really glad to be able to pull those two things together.

In terms of the licensed—. On the SMART targets, definitely. We'll be looking to put targets on the road map proposals and put forward timescales for when we ought to be able to comply with that. As I said in response to David Melding, we'll be looking to see whether we can get legislation or regulation change into this Assembly term, and if not, how fast we can put it in place as drafts at the very least for the next Assembly. I don't think this is going to be party political in any way. So, as fast as we can prepare it, we'll get it through.

In terms of the licensed builders, there is a whole section in the road map around standards and approved inspectors and the way the system holds together. So, I'm interested in the points that Leanne Wood made. They're very valid points, but I don't want to respond right now because that's part of how we're responding to the way that both the building inspectors are licensed and the builders themselves carry out their work. So, I'm afraid that will be part of the response in May.

I too would like to welcome the publication of the road map as an important step forward in building safety in Wales. The Equality, Local Government and Communities Committee, which I chair, has been looking at the issue of fire safety in high-rise buildings since the awful tragedy of Grenfell Tower in 2017.

As David Melding touched upon, we've looked at many of the issues that are the subject of the road map and, indeed, the express purpose—or one of the purposes—of our report was to inform that road map, as well as inform the general Welsh Government policy and action in relation to these matters. So, I'm very pleased that, from an initial reading of the road map, it does seem to be very much on the same footing as our report conclusions and recommendations.

In particular, the recommendation to replace the fire safety Order is something that the committee has been calling for since 2017, and we did call for new legislation in the current term. I hear what the Minister has said in response to David Melding and Leanne with regard to those matters. The committee was certainly clearly of the view that, if it could be done in this current Assembly term, that would be very beneficial indeed. 

And yes, we will, obviously, have the full response to the road map in May, Minister, as you've outlined. Nonetheless, I wonder if there's anything you could say now in relation to a couple of other matters. One is the annual fire-risk assessment for those buildings in scope, which the road map recommends legislation on. Again, this mirrors our recommendation in our report, and I wonder whether you could say anything more about when that legislation will be brought forward, beyond what you've already stated. 

And in terms of the capacity in the building control sector, which Members have touched upon and which is obviously very important from that road map and your own comments, we heard that regulatory services within local authorities have often borne the brunt of local authority cuts, which is a matter of real concern. Is there anything else you could say, Minister, in terms of how Welsh Government can best address the recommendations in the road map around those capacity issues and building up competence within that building control sector?

And finally, in relation to the use of sprinklers in high-rise residential buildings and the recommendation you've accepted from the road map, and, indeed, my own committee's report, I wonder—. In terms of the response to our report, Minister, you stated the Government was considering how else you might encourage the retrofitting of sprinklers, and I wonder if at this stage again you're able to say anything more about how you could most effectively take forward those recommendations.

Well, starting with the last one there, I very much welcome John Griffiths's comments and I agree with him entirely that it's very much in the same space as the committee report, which is really pleasing—that we are able to take it forward together. 

Going backwards, some of the things that he raises, rightly, are things that we will need to respond to in the round in the report overall. I think the issue around invasive fire-risk assessments, which I think David Melding has raised on a number of occasions and which the committee certainly looked at, will be something we look at in the round in the process that the road map sets out. It's quite comprehensive, the process that's set out, with some stops in it for checks, and so on, so we will be looking to see what can be done with that.

And it has the phases in it. So, it's got the new build—how you put the building regulations in place for a new build—but it's also got the occupancy phase recommendations in it, and I'm very keen to look carefully at the occupancy phase: what should be undertaken by way of retrofit, but then what the ongoing inspection regime should be, as he said. Because actually, as the technology changes and as knowledge changes, it may well be that something comes up that's brilliant in three years' time that nobody in this room has yet thought of, and we want to be able to incorporate new fire safety things, digital things, perhaps, or whatever, into that assessment and not have to rely on legislation to bring them forward.

So, it's partly that we want to think about the response and the way we bring forward the regulations to try to futureproof them as much as possible and to allow fire-risk assessments to look at best practice as it is right now as you do the assessment, so that each time the assessment is done, you're looking again, afresh, at best practice, so that if things have changed in the intervening years, actually you'd expect people to upgrade to that level, because I think that's the real issue. We would have to look to see what can be put in place to finance that. If we're going to do it through the private rented sector, for example, we will need to be able to understand the effects of the needed capital investment, or whatever it is, that might be required. We will need to carefully consider how the system balances the proportionality with making sure that people have the best fire safety.

So, that's why I'm reluctant to answer right now, because we want to look at a lot of those issues in the round before we bring forward the proposals for both the regulations and for the kind of culture change, if you like, that goes with them.

One of the areas where we were definitely forward thinking—and it's thanks to our Deputy Presiding Officer's legislation—was in putting sprinklers in buildings. It was her foresight and experience that helped drive that forward. I'm sure everybody will join with me in congratulating her on both of those things.

Moving on from that to futureproofing, one of the issues—I don't want to repeat what other people have said, so I'm going to focus on two areas. One of the key areas is training the workforce going forward. As you've quite rightly mentioned, things move apace, and the materials and the systems move equally quickly. So, one guarantee that will be needed is that the workforce will be trained in such a way that there's confidence for them to carry out those jobs. That confidence, of course, will come from the industry response group, and I know that you're waiting for responses from them. So, I ask when it is, if you do have a time frame, that we can expect those responses to come forward. 

Of course, the other key thing is the materials that will be used. Again, materials evolve and they get used, and that was, sadly, what happened in this case that caused all those problems. So, again, the testing of those materials is critical, but also the construction of the buildings into which they're going, so that we are fully satisfied that they're constructed in such a way that should a fire break out those people within those buildings are as safe as they can possibly be.

Moving on, within that, we've got the Renting Homes (Wales) Act 2016. It makes provisions to carry out electrical safety testing at least every five years. Considering that that has been delayed, I hope that there will be consideration within there about the electrical testing of equipment, because very often—in fact, in many, many cases—it is electrical faults that cause the fires in the first place.

Yes, I think Joyce Watson makes a number of very important points there, and overlapped with a point I didn't respond to in John Griffiths's submission, actually, which I've just realised, which is the issue about the competence and the building inspectors. So, there is a whole section in the road map around approved inspectors and their competency, and how a joint competent authority might work between the local authority, the inspectors and the construction industry group.

One of the reasons we're responding in May is because we want to have the benefit of the group's response and recommendations before we go forward. We are looking to ensure that people do employ people with the right competencies, and that the building inspectors are enabled to carry out a proper inspection not just of the work but of the workforce, if you like, so that you can't just, you know, get anybody along, pay them a minimum wage and get them to do it, unless they're supervised by a competent qualified person and all of those kinds of things. We are waiting on the group's response to that.

There is an interesting suggestion in the road map around the joint competent authority, which we want to look at very carefully. It does introduce a whole new tier of bureaucracy, I guess, and we will want to see whether that works and whether there are better ways to do it in Wales. But, the principle I completely accept: that there has to be a severing—I think David Melding and Leanne actually mentioned this as well—of the role of the builder, the inspector, the approver and then the inspection. So, in the route-map, there are stop points where an independent assessment can be carried out. So, we do need to look at the system.

I'm also very interested to look at the system by which local authorities are remunerated for building inspection work and whether that represents a conflict of interest, and if it does, what we can do about it, and that's the proposal around the joint competent authority. So, we have much to consider before we come forward with the detailed proposals, which is why we want to take our time in making sure that we get the system that we put in place right, so that it is fit for purpose and that we run some test cases through it to make sure that we haven't got unintended consequences, and so on. Again, it's about proportionality, isn't it, expecting people to invest the right amount in the fire safety of their building, without making it virtually impossible for anybody to be able to comply? So, it is about getting that proportionality right.

Thank you very much, Minister. Diolch.