As a member of CLAC, I wasn't actually present when this investigation was made, but I did want to add something to it, in as much as this figure of 10 per cent that is included in the regulations, about how that figure was reached. Now, I heard you, Minister when you said that Ofqual has said that this is a suitable figure, but I'm still no wiser as to why Ofqual thinks that's a reasonable figure. And I raise it in particular because I'm not aware of any consultation on this particular figure or, indeed, any understanding of the practical implications that would affect a body that was not in compliance with the conditions in which it was permitted to be an awarding body.

And if I just take the WJEC as one example, although I realise, of course, other bodies may be affected: their turnover last year—and I'm not sure if this includes value added tax, but it's a good indicative figure—was in the order of £45 million, whereas their net income or their profit was in the order of £2 million, which is half of half of 10 per cent of its turnover. So, while I agree that a maximum penalty should be pretty stiff, it also needs to be practical for anybody to be able to pay it. In those particular circumstances, I find it difficult to see how a body in those circumstances would be able to pay it.

It also needs to be proportionate to the breach and it's a point that Mick Antoniw has already raised, as Chair of CLAC, with you, because—what can I say—I foresee judicial review of the quantum of any penalties if Qualifications Wales isn't furnished with some sort of guidelines to help them assess what is 'appropriate', as that's the word in the regulations. There's no steer in these particular regulations, unlike those in England, and I'm unaware of any contemporaneous guidelines that are being drawn up or due to be published. Now, if there are any, of course, I'd be very pleased to hear about them.

So, while we have no issue at all with section 38 itself, or these breaches of conditions—particularly in an environment where there's very little competition, those breaches must be deterred—but as the regulations stand, I don't think we have sufficient information on how the figure of 10 per cent of turnover was reached, and nor do we have any assurance on how lower penalties will be decided to be reasonable and proportionate. In those circumstances, I'm afraid we will not be supporting this regulation.