The following amendments have been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Rebecca Evans and amendment 2 in the name of Darren Millar.

That brings us to the UKIP debate on homeworking, and I call on Gareth Bennett to move the motion. Gareth Bennett.

Motion NDM7045 Gareth Bennett

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales:

1. Notes that National Work Wise Week takes place from Sunday 12 May to Saturday 18 May 2019.

2. Believes that home working provides more flexibility for family responsibilities, and also has wider benefits, such as less traffic and pollution, more accessible work for disabled people, and keeping premises costs down for businesses.

3. Calls on the Welsh Government to ensure that all public bodies in Wales have a duty to include home working in job design and recruitment.

4. Calls on the Welsh Government to develop a specific strategy for home working within the successor project to Superfast Cymru, to ensure that people who wish to work from home are not impeded by a lack of broadband access.

Motion moved.

Diolch, Llywydd. [Interruption.]

Make a start.

Thank you. Diolch again, Llywydd. Today's debate is on the subject of working from home, which hopefully Members will agree is an interesting topic and worthy of some Chamber time in which to investigate it. We in UKIP think that, in general, allowing more employees to work from home is a good objective, as long, of course, as that is what the employees themselves want to do. So I think we need to look at the levers we have here in the Assembly to see what we might do to facilitate a higher level of homeworking in Wales.

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Ann Jones) took the Chair.

That is in essence what today's motion is about. It isn't particularly a partisan subject that needs to divide people along party lines. Today's motion is more about trying to find a consensus between the different parties here, as of course we always attempt to do in UKIP. So, I am approaching the amendments today with that in mind. 

The Government seem to be in broad agreement with our objectives. Their amendments only delete part of one of our four points. However, while that much is true, it does delete our wish for a specific Welsh Government strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru. We do need Welsh Government ultimately to commit to specifics if we are to get anywhere with this mission. So, we don't agree with this amendment, although we recognise that it is the only bit that the Government is looking to amend. They aren't doing a 'delete all' on us on this occasion. So, that much is promising. 

The Conservative amendment raises the point that there can be disadvantages to homeworking. I'm not denying that homeworking won't necessarily work for everyone. So, the aim isn't to push people into homeworking against their will, but rather to make it easier for those people who would prefer to work from home to be able to do so. In fact, the point that is quoted in the Conservative amendment is from one part of a report that is generally favourable to the idea of homeworking. But, of course, we have to be mindful that we don't want to push people into something that they don't want to do. So, we accept the logic of the amendment and we will support the Conservative amendment today.

The driving force behind today's motion is new technology and the changes in lifestyle that may be enabled by new technology. The UK Government is currently mired in a very expensive transport project—I refer to HS2—which has been extremely controversial and which has been an albatross around the neck of the Westminster Government for almost the entire time it has been in office. Interestingly, although we may have almost forgotten this now, HS2 was actually the idea originally of the last Labour Government. It was first proposed in 2009 when Gordon Brown was still in office. Here in Wales, the Welsh Government has been in a similar muddle over the M4 relief road. This scheme has also had spiralling costs, which will inevitably impede other areas of spending if the project does ever actually get the go ahead.

The reason I mention these transport schemes is that, in a way, they may be almost redundant. I know that sounds strange when we have so much traffic congesting the roads, but a point to bear in mind is that, in some ways, investing in roads and railways is investing in old technology. It is investment that is predicated on a notion that countless millions of people will forever be needing to travel physically from one place to another on a daily basis in order to undertake their work. 

When you think about it, if we were to develop a reliable, fast broadband network throughout the UK, we wouldn't need so many people to be travelling on trains or cars or even on buses. We wouldn't need so many people travelling into an office every day if all of the work that they did in the office they could equally well undertake at home. Admittedly, of course, homeworking won't have much effect on manufacturing, processing or agricultural sectors. But of course administrative jobs have become a large part of the economy and homeworking could have a big effect on that sector. If contact is needed between the employee and the manager or middle manager, this can be facilitated these days by telephone, including by conference call or by Skype, by e-mail including via e-mail chains involving many people, and by other methods of electronic messaging.

I'm not suggesting that all office workers can work from home all of the time, but if we can cut down on the number of people travelling into work each day, that would help to ease the pressure on road and rail networks. However, currently, there may not be much incentive for companies to move towards more homeworking. For company bosses, introducing more homeworking might be regarded as something of a nuisance. That's why we have to think about using tax incentives and/or contractual processes to try and get companies to think more along these lines.

I have made some inquiries of the Welsh Government as to what they are doing precisely to encourage more homeworking. I have done two First Minister's questions on this subject, for instance. The responses I have received have been thus far, although broadly in agreement with the aims, somewhat vague as to the specifics. We do realise in UKIP that there is a big Welsh Government project going on to improve the quality and speed of broadband throughout Wales, and obviously that project will have a major effect on how far we can usher in an era of more homeworking. So, we do acknowledge that. But, as for specific schemes incentivising companies in Wales to introduce or extend homeworking, I haven't been able to locate any. Of course, I'm interested in the Minister's response today and, if I have overlooked important work that the Welsh Government is doing specifically in this area, then I will of course admit the error. But, certainly, I haven't been able to locate any Welsh Government work specific to this area.

I know that there is a business exploitation programme, which aims to highlight to Welsh small and medium-sized enterprises the advantages of using the better broadband connectivity once it exists in their area, and there is recent academic work that also highlights the commercial benefits of doing so. There is also a connection with the work being done by the Fair Work Commission, part of which is to try to get companies to think about outputs, rather than hours worked. This is another lever that might help companies to think about more homeworking, although, again, neither angle is specific to the precise issue of homeworking.

So, are there other things the Welsh Government could be doing? In the past, we were told that they would be facilitating the appointment of travel plan co-ordinators, who were supposed to be working with employers across Wales to encourage sustainable travel, and they would be encouraging things like car sharing, but also, more to the point for today's motion, video-conferencing and working from home. I've struggled, though, to find much information on these travel plan co-ordinators, and it may be an idea that is in danger of slipping through the cracks.

We are, in today's motion, asking for some specific measures, such as calling on the Welsh Government to ensure that all public bodies in Wales have a duty to include homeworking in the design of jobs and how those jobs are advertised and how people are recruited. We're also calling on the Welsh Government to develop a specific strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru, to ensure that people who wish to work from home are not impeded by a lack of broadband access.

I mentioned the benefits to the transport system of encouraging more homeworking, and that isn't the only benefit, potentially. There is also the fact that one of the problems afflicting British industry is productivity. If people are working in an environment that is more pleasant to them, it may well be that output does go up, as long, of course, as homeworkers are properly trained to do the job and kept in the loop as regards ongoing training. There are also advantages for those with childcare or other caring responsibilities, who tend to be more likely to be women, and also those with physical disabilities of bringing in a work environment in Wales that is more receptive to homeworking.

These points have also been made by the Trades Union Congress general secretary, Frances O'Grady. She pointed out in May 2018 that the number of people regularly working from home in the UK the previous year was still only 1.6 million, a figure that had remained unchanged from the year before. She identified two reasons why homeworking has stalled. One was the UK's extremely variable broadband speeds, the other was that too many line managers still believe that workers can't be trusted without constant supervision. So, there is a bit of a cultural battle to be won with regard to the second point.

To some extent, people working in management also need to be convinced of the benefits of homeworking. Interestingly, though, 12 per cent of managers work from home on a permanent basis, but only about 2 per cent of employees do. Another startling statistic is that, in the UK, only 6 per cent of administrators work from home, even though many of their tasks could surely just as easily be performed remotely these days. So, throughout the UK, there is obviously a lot of work to be done on this issue. Perhaps we can try to lead the way on that here in Wales.

Thank you. I have selected two amendments to the motion, and I call on the Minister for Housing and Local Government to move amendment 1, formally, tabled in the name of Rebecca Evans.

Amendment 1—Rebecca Evans

In point 4, delete:

'to develop a specific strategy for home working within the successor project to Superfast Cymru,'.

Amendment 1 moved.

Formally.

Thank you. I call on Russell George to move amendment 2, tabled in the name of Darren Millar. 

Amendment 2—Darren Millar

Add as new point at end of motion:

Notes that Professor Sharon Clarke and Dr Lyn Holdsworth of Manchester Business School have stated that flexible workers, and particularly home workers, face 'the potential for occupational stress to be increased as a result of work intensification, conflicts with co-workers, and disrupted information flow' and acknowledges the need for these issues to be factored into future policy making.

Amendment 2 moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I move amendment 2 in the name of my colleague Darren Millar?

You will note that we have not deleted any part of UKIP's motion. We agree with UKIP's motion as it has been laid. And I believe that there is, I suspect, broad consensus about the right to request flexible working, which is largely supported, I think, also by the business community as well. The objective of our amendment to this motion today is to ensure that the debate doesn't solely paint an exclusively positive picture, but also recognises the potential implications of flexible working arrangements, especially homeworking, which can potentially lead to occupational stress for some people and potential conflicts with co-workers who are not afforded the same flexibility.

This has been demonstrated by research from Professor Clarke and Dr Holdsworth of Manchester Business School in their report on flexibility in the workplace. So, it certainly is important, I think, that this debate and any future policy making in this area considers these potential ramifications, as well as the many potential benefits that have been pointed out by Gareth Bennett. And I agree with, I think, if not all of Gareth Bennett's comments in his opening remarks today, especially in regards to the connectivity issues that he points out, which are of course an obstacle for homeworking in many parts of Wales. Perhaps I'd urge Members after voting time to remain in the Chamber to listen to my colleague Paul Davies's short debate later this afternoon.

The 2017 Taylor review of modern working practices states, and I'm quoting here,

'Flexibility in the labour market is important and must be retained in order to keep participation rates high'.

So, it is important, I think, to reiterate what I said in last week's debate in ensuring that opposition to casual contracts from some in this Chamber does not have the unintended consequence of limiting the flexibility of workers, preventing employers from offering work patterns that suit their circumstances and meet customer demand at peak times, and, in turn, preventing employees from being able to work in a way that suits them.

It ought to be recognised, of course, that the UK Government's 'Good Work Plan' sets out a commitment to ensuring that all workers can secure fair and decent work. Again, I would point out that we on these benches agree with the motion put forward by UKIP today, and we hope that our amendment has added to this debate in a constructive way. 

Homeworking in certain circumstances can be very valuable for both employer and worker, but I just don't see the advantages claimed by this motion as actually being there. Homeworking obviously has to be carefully considered and not forced on employers or employees, whether they're in the private or public sector, but homeworking really, really isn't feasible for a lot of roles, particularly in the public sector where jobs are more likely to be public facing. Gareth was talking about administrative workers. I don't see how your average administration clerk would be able to effectively work from home. These roles tend to rely on an input and output of some sort of hard-copy documentation, so I just don't see how it would work for many, many classes of staff, even those who are normally based in an office. Again, with the public sector, those jobs tend to be more public facing so, again, I just don't see how it's feasible.  

The proposal I think is questionable on a number of fronts. I think for a start it's conflating homeworking with flexible working. When I talk about homeworking, I mean working at home during your standard hours as opposed to working in a central point. It doesn't mean necessarily an effective cut or rearrangement of working hours to allow for an improved work-life balance. Homeworking itself also doesn't necessarily bring flexibility for family responsibilities either, although inevitably it means that the work is accessible to the family at home, which, ironically, might actually increase the stress of working at home, because you're having to juggle family stuff and work things as well while trying to maintain a relationship with your team. 

As Darren Millar's amendment makes clear, there's a valid concern that working from home may add to stress levels rather than be of help, and I've mentioned one reason why that might be. But, ultimately, humans are social animals and not designed for living in isolation. Healthy teams have a sense of camaraderie and provide support for when that employee faces a work difficulty. And, again, achieving a healthy work balance is actually harder for homeworkers, because they don't have that psychological cut-off from work of leaving the workplace at the end of the day, or even if you take work home with you, you still at some point pack it away and that's it—that's your psychological cut-off for that day. Homeworkers don't have that kind of cut-off, because their work is actually in their home; it's more difficult for them to get away from it.

As far as increased access for disabled people is concerned, I fear that the proposal would be letting employers off the hook on making sure that they abide by disability equality laws. Organisations should already be making their workplaces accessible to all, not being given a get-out by offering homeworking as a way of saving themselves the expense and effort. And cutting pollution using homeworking isn't as clear-cut as it may first seem. Homeworkers will have to heat their homes for additional time, they're going to have to use additional electricity; that's going to come off their utility bills, not the employer's, and the employers normally would bear those costs. I don't think it's right to transfer costs that would normally be borne by the employer to workers. So, that's certainly a reason why it wouldn't be particularly popular with workers, I'd argue.

So, homeworking, of course, eliminates the commute and resulting pollution on the days that the worker works at home, but that cut in pollution will be more than outweighed by the pollution created by the duplication of resources that would otherwise be shared in the workplace, such as equipment, heating, lighting et cetera. As well, you're going to have additional equipment in the office, additional equipment at the home. It's a lot more complicated than I think the UKIP group think it is. We could also perhaps just as easily cut down on rush-hour congestion by persuading employers to stagger their operating hours, so that entire industrial estates aren't disgorging everyone onto the same roads at the same time. But you've got to get employers to co-operate with that.

And on a cost and practicality basis, I don't think there's any merit in requiring public bodies to include homeworking in the job design and recruitment. Much of the time, it'll be a wasted exercise. It will distract both time and money from the organisation that could be used to better perform their core function. And, as I said, lots of roles just aren't suitable for homeworking. As any business case grows for homeworking, I'm sure employers—those reasonable employers, that is—will look to provide it as part of the recruitment package without the idea being given to them by Gareth. A case for the Government to develop a specific strategy for homeworking within the successor project to Superfast Cymru hasn't been convincingly made, and I think Rebecca Evans's amendment does make a lot of sense. However, I won't be supporting the proposal today, amended or otherwise. I think it has a danger of overburdening public bodies, while not delivering the benefits it claims, and I also don't think it's a priority for people in Wales. Thank you.

Thank you. Can I now call the Minister for Housing and Local Government, Julie James?

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Now, as I said during my statement on fair work yesterday, we want Wales to be a place where everyone can access work that is decent and life enhancing, free of exploitation and poverty and where people have the opportunity to develop their skills and to progress. We are committed to delivering inclusive economic growth in Wales. We want thriving businesses, with workers benefiting through fair and secure, well-rewarded employment.

Social partnership provides a mechanism to help deliver this objective. Through involving Government, unions and businesses in decisions that help shape the working environment at both local and national level, we can work together to deliver a fairer economy. Welsh Government is fully committed to those objectives of social partnership. Working alongside the trade unions, we have taken a lead in the UK, promoting the importance of job security, decent pay and working conditions. The challenges we face mean we have to strengthen our social partnership model further, putting equality at its heart. We are committed to legislating, therefore, to put social partnership on that statutory footing we discussed only yesterday during my statement.

Alongside this work, the Welsh Government is promoting flexible working and other fair employment practices, doing this through our economic contract, the employability plan and the code of practice on ethical employment in supply chains by way of example. The Business Wales website provides information to employers on how to improve productivity through flexible working arrangements, and the Fair Work Commission was set up to advise us on what more we can do. It has completed its work and, as I said only yesterday during my statement, the report has been published and we will respond shortly.

The Fair Work Commission's call for evidence provided a prime opportunity for the Welsh public sector, the private sector and individuals across Wales to promote and provide views on fair work, including flexible working practices, and it is, as Russell George pointed out, very important to balance what is right for individuals as well as employers and businesses. Employee well-being, I agree with you entirely, is paramount, and Welsh Government is committed to ensuring fair and ethical working practices, while protecting the rights and responsibilities of individuals employed as well. Our economic contract, which is set out in our economic action plan, presents our opportunity to engage in dialogue with employers on issues that have the potential to support individuals as well as their businesses. It requires businesses seeking direct financial support to commit to a range of criteria, including fair work and the promotion of health, upskilling and learning in the workplace, and that includes promoting the adoption of flexible—or modern, as they're called, actually—working practices. All companies applying for direct business grant support from Welsh Government will need to demonstrate that they are committed to that fair work and to promoting health in the workplace—and by workplace, I of course also mean people's homes, if that is, in part, their workplace.

We also recognise that too few disabled people are in work. The commitments in our employability plan are aimed at tackling this. We will work with our partners to address the issues behind this, including employer attitudes, job design and working practices. We reaffirm our commitment to the social model of disability and to overcome the many and varied barriers that society can put in the way of disabled people in order for them to pursue their career aspirations. We know that there is no quick fix and action is indeed needed to overcome barriers such as transport, the attitudes of employers and, in some cases, employment practices, which can either directly or inadvertently discriminate against people with disabilities. We also know, though, that there are many employers who are exemplars and others can learn a lot about their good practice.

Within the Welsh Government, officials have set up an equalities working group for our employability plan. The first priority of that group is to look at disability and employment and to oversee activities supporting our commitments to reduce the disability employment gap. We recognise that the broader structures and culture of workplaces will have a direct impact on the employability of disabled people, and in the employability plan we commit to increasing the number of employers who place emphasis on creating workplaces that are inclusive and supportive environments, or 'disability confident', as we like to call them.

We are challenging employers to think creatively about how they design jobs and recruit the people to fill them, and if I might say also, that encompasses, actually, many of the views that we've heard here today. What we want to see is employers who are empowered to look at the output of their employees and not where they work or the hours that they work. So, an employee who is capable of producing the outputs necessary, can do the job well, and if they do that job from home or in work or a combination of both of those, that should make absolutely no difference. 

We continue to work closely with the UK Government through its work and health unit and the Department for Work and Pensions to link up with the delivery of their UK-wide target to get more than 1 million more disabled people into work by 2027. We definitely want to see more positive results being delivered for more disabled people and for those with limiting health conditions across Wales. Welsh Government, to that end, is exploring the potential for a disability employment champion network. The role will be to work with employers across Wales to help recognise the talents of disabled people and to encourage inclusive recruitment practices. In doing so, we will work with the disability sector, employers and stakeholders to ensure we establish an inclusive approach in the recruitment and employment process. But we should also remember, as various people have pointed out, that not everyone wants to work from home and there is a need to develop fully inclusive workplaces for those who wish to work at a workplace.

Turning to the Superfast Cymru successor project and the broadband issue, I quite agree that where it's possible and desirable we should ensure the technology is in place to enable this. Superfast Cymru—I'll just remind everyone—fundamentally altered the broadband landscape in Wales, bringing superfast broadband to areas of Wales that simply would not ever have been connected without the project. We need to recognise the significant achievement that this large-scale engineering project represented, and as a result of it, homes and businesses the length and breadth of Wales enjoy the benefits of the investment and the access to digital services. The vast majority of premises in Wales can now access the Superfast broadband service compared to barely half five years ago. And in those areas, both businesses and individuals are now enjoying the benefits that fast broadband brings, including the ability to work from home or more flexibly or on an output basis. However, Members will also be aware that there's more to do to reach the remaining premises that are not yet able to benefit from fast broadband. Given the scale of the task in providing fast, reliable broadband to those premises currently unable to access it, we will need a range of interventions in future, and that's why our amendment specifically deletes one line, only because we want a range of interventions, not just the successor programme. Because there is no one-size-fits-all solution, we need to make sure that these interventions are complementary, address the remaining need for fast broadband, and reflect local demand for services. There are three elements to our approach: individual support through our voucher schemes, support for communities through our voucher schemes and community-led interventions, and publicly funded roll-outs through the successor project to Superfast Cymru. Therefore, the successor project fills one part of that suite of interventions, as I said.

An initial 26,000 premises will be provided by access to fast, reliable broadband by March 2021, at a cost of nearly £22.5 million to the public purse, but we are also investigating with BT whether future premises can be added to that project. We're also committed to providing individual support to those premises unable to access fast broadband by continuing the Access Broadband Cymru scheme. We also announced earlier this year that agreement had been reached with the UK Government to provide additional funding for premises in Wales through the UK Government's gigabit broadband voucher scheme, and for group projects, the Welsh Government will pay up to an additional £3,000 per small to medium-sized business and an additional £300 per residential property. This means that for group projects in Wales, up to £5,500 is available per business and up to £800 is available per residential property.

In addition to our interventions, the UK Government are also devising a new programme to tackle rural and very rural premises. And given the significant challenges posed by the geography as Wales, it is vital that Wales benefits from those new opportunities.

So, Deputy Presiding Officer, we are committed to creating a better working future for everyone in Wales. We agree with the motion in large, but there's a small, minor amendment for a technical reason, but other than that, I'm pleased to say that there seems to be a consensus that everyone here is committed to creating a better working future for everyone in Wales. Diolch.

Thank you very much. I call on Gareth Bennett to reply to the debate.

Thanks, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thanks to the participants in what was an interesting debate. Thanks to Russell George, who said that the Conservative group broadly supported the aims of today's motion. And as I said in my opening remarks, I understood the logic of their amendments and we were supportive of their amendments. Now, Russell did raise some of the potential difficulties of homeworking that we should be mindful of. They were points that were also taken up by Michelle, and more fulsomely, I would say, in Michelle's case; she certainly was not so enthusiastic.

Now, we have to appreciate there are potential downsides, of course. Issues that have been mentioned, even by advocates of more homeworking, have included potential social isolation and lack of camaraderie of employees and feeling out of the loop. Conflict with other workers was a point that Russell raised specifically, and Michelle also—well, she mentioned a number of things. Now, these are all very valid issues, and we do have to be mindful of them, but the point of the motion today was that people should be enabled to work at home if they want to do so. It wasn't about people being forced to work from home. And I did make that clear in the opening remarks and I'd like to reassert those points.

Now, the Government response—thank you for your broad support, and I accept that you feel the need to amend it for the reasons that the Minister gave. Now, we do accept that Superfast Cymru has been a good programme. There are considerable difficulties with the physical geography of Wales, and providing a very good broadband speed and a reliable broadband speed is, of course, probably the major issue that will allow us to move forward with more homeworking. Lots of general things from the Government to do with equalities and fair work practices, which, of course, are good objectives, but we would like some more commitment, if possible, to the actual specifics of working from home in future. So, hopefully, we will get that and we can move forward with this and develop some specific measures to improve homeworking, but thanks for participating and diolch yn fawr iawn.

Thank you very much. The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Thank you. Therefore, we defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

I do now propose to go to voting time, unless three Members wish for the bell to be rung. No. Right.