4. Statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs: Clean Air

– in the Senedd at 4:18 pm on 18 June 2019.

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Photo of Suzy Davies Suzy Davies Conservative 4:18, 18 June 2019

(Translated)

The next item is the statement by the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs on clean air. I call on the Minister for Environment, Energy and Rural Affairs, Lesley Griffiths.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour

Diolch, Chair. Air pollution is the most serious environmental health risk we face today. Welsh Government is reducing the exposure of people and the natural environment to harmful air pollution through delivering new infrastructure, strengthening regulation and undertaking robust monitoring and evidence gathering. 

Clean air is central to our well-being, and our approach to tackling air pollution is guided by the ways of working identified by the well-being of future generations Act. The level of nitrogen dioxide pollution is one of the national indicators created by the Act, which we use to measure progress towards our well-being goals. Due to the continued impact of air quality issues on people and the environment, Welsh Government has committed to bring forward a new clean air Act. We are committed to taking all practical measures to improve air quality, not just in the most polluted hotspots, but across all of Wales.

Air pollution has the greatest impact on the most vulnerable people in our society: children, older people, those with chronic health conditions, and people living in deprived areas. Air pollution is also affecting the condition of our natural environment, threatening our most rare and endangered plant species, and causing widespread damage to crops and forests. In Wales, the single most problematic source of air pollution is road traffic, although pollution from industry, agriculture and domestic burning also require our urgent attention.

Action by Government and industry over the last three decades has led to a dramatic decline in some air pollutants, whilst others have changed little and some have even shown small increases in recent years. The levels of pollution to which our citizens and our natural environment are exposed are still too high, and further action is required.

(Translated)

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:20, 18 June 2019

The World Health Organization publish air quality guidelines based on the latest scientific evidence of the impact of air pollutants on human health. For some air pollutants, there is no safe level of exposure, and, in these circumstances, the guidance suggests levels that represent an achievable minimum. These guidelines are intended as a starting point for national Governments to develop measures that reflect the local factors that are known to shape the impacts of air pollution. We are considering World Health Organization guideline levels for particulate matter. This will enable us to understand practical aspects of achieving air quality improvements and inform our future plans.

The current legal limits on air pollution are derived from the law of the European Union, and set a minimum acceptable standard. The need for rules at EU level reflects the fact that air pollution does not respect national borders and requires a concerted response at local, national and international levels. Whatever the outcome of the Brexit process, we are committed to ensuring our environmental protections are aligned to those at EU level, with absolutely no lowering of standards.

Delivering against these standards requires collaborative action across Government and society. Therefore, the responsibility for tackling air pollution is shared right across the Cabinet. I have been working with the Minister for Economy and Transport on actions to address nitrogen dioxide exceedance in five sites across our strategic motorway and trunk road network. I am pleased to announce that 50 mph speed limits will be in place on a permanent basis across all five sites by the middle of July. We will be enhancing communications around the reason for the speed restrictions and providing new permanent traffic sign layouts at all sites, so that the public is aware of the importance of these measures.

At the end of this month, I'm due to receive feasibility study reports from Cardiff and Caerphilly councils, outlining action that they will take to achieve legal limits for nitrogen dioxide in the shortest possible time frame. The plans will be independently assessed by a panel of experts next month, and I intend to make a final decision on the implementation of measures as soon as possible thereafter, based on the evidence and advice.

Achieving clean air means that, as a society, we must reduce our reliance on the private car and encourage walking, cycling and use of public transport. Welsh Government is investing heavily in creating active travel routes across Wales, with more than £30 million of investment under way and more planned for next year. Our ambition for all buses and taxis to be low or no carbon emissions by 2028 will ensure that increasing use of public transport can contribute to improving air quality, as well as moving us towards a low-carbon economy.

Tackling air quality requires changes to the planning system to prevent air quality issues before they arise. Following changes to strengthen requirements to address air quality considerations in the revised 'Planning Policy Wales', published last year, I am pleased that planning officials and my own are developing a new technical advisory note for planners and developers on air quality and soundscape, following a focused call for evidence later this year.

Having the best available evidence is essential so that we can maximise the positive impact of the measures we take to address air pollution. In April this year, I commissioned an extensive assessment of multi-pollutant and cross-sector emission reduction measures. This research will provide the most detailed assessment ever conducted of air quality across Wales. It will consider the full range of possible interventions and assess them on the basis of value for money. Crucially, it will assess the potential impact of those measures against the seven wellbeing goals from our Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act. This evidence will be used to inform our clean air plan for Wales. In turn, the plan will identify those areas that require the changes to legislation to be addressed through our clean air Act.

From our first breath to our last, we all need clean air to lead healthier and happier lives. The action I have described demonstrates Welsh Government’s commitment to delivering new infrastructure, evidence and regulation to help to achieve this aim. There is also action we can all take today to avert the dangers of air pollution. We can all reduce our personal contributions to air pollution and our exposure to it. That is why Welsh Government has partnered with Global Action Plan for the first time to celebrate Clean Air Day on 20 June. It is vital we inform everyone about the causes of air pollution and the role we each have in tackling it. So, I urge all Members of the National Assembly and everyone listening to this debate to support the Clean Air Day campaign and consider what you can do to ensure that Wales breathes clean air.

Photo of Andrew RT Davies Andrew RT Davies Conservative

Thank you, Commissioner. Minister, thank you for your statement today. This is one of the areas where we desperately need to make significant progress, with 2,000 premature deaths a year just in Wales alone. That's five people a day who are dying prematurely because of the poor air quality we have here in Wales. Cardiff and Port Talbot, for example, have a higher particulate level in the air that people breathe in those two areas than Birmingham or Manchester, and, as someone who was in the Birmingham and Manchester area over the weekend, when you think of the scale of those two areas and the level of potential pollution in those areas, that really drives home how far behind the curve we are here in Wales. I do think that the Welsh Government need to step up and improve their actions in this particular area. In particular, in January this year, obviously, they admitted that they weren't meeting their legal requirements—or the Welsh Government weren't meeting their legal requirements—so, can you confirm, Minister, that, after today's statement and the actions you've outlined in the statement, the Welsh Government is now meeting its legal requirements when it comes to air quality, or, if you are not meeting those legal requirements, when are you likely to be meeting the basic levels that are set under law to you as a Government?

You touched in the statement on the 50 mph speed limits that you're going to put in place along the trunk road and the motorway network in Wales; I have to say, that would be a dream for many people stuck on the M4 day in, day out, and the pollution that comes from static traffic on three lanes—well, six lanes, in effect, because very often it's both ways—is a massive issue for people who live in the Newport and the south-east Wales area. So, I wish you well on your public information campaign, but, if you're saying about 50 mph, most people would say you dare not get close to 50 mph at most times of the day on that particular motorway.

But I do think it is important that we understand why you're not coming to the Chamber today and maybe embracing some of the actions the UK Government has taken around air quality. [Interruption.] Well, it is truth. The World Health Organization themselves have said that the statement and the strategy that the UK Government—and I hear, from a sedentary position, laughs, but the World Health Organization said that the strategy that the UK Government has put in place is an example for the rest of the world to follow. So, that's not politicians saying that, that's the World Health Organization. But I'm sure the nationalists might know better than the World Health Organization.

So, could I ask—[Interruption.] Could I ask why the Minister hasn't seen fit to maybe adopt such a strategy here in Wales, given that I wouldn't suggest that there are massive differences between our economy and what's going on across the border and Offa's Dyke? And, if that strategy is robust enough for the World Health Organization, why haven't we adopted that here in Wales?

Also, I note in the statement that the Minister says that our policies and laws are based on the EU standards. It is a fact that, obviously, the World Health Organization standards are above those European standards and the UK Government has signed up to meet those WHO standards. Could the Minister confirm that it would be certainly an aspiration for the Welsh Government to deliver to WHO rather than EU standards? Because that would see a step change again in what we could achieve here in Wales. You've talked about a cleaner air Act, Minister; I'd be grateful to understand—talking about 2021, that Act coming forward from the Welsh Government, I seem to recall that being election year for us here in the Assembly, so is that more of a commitment from the Welsh Government that it would be in a manifesto, or is it going to be actually delivered and implemented by 2021? What is the timetable that the Welsh Government is working to to deliver such an Act? Because I'm sure—. I think there is cross-party support for such an Act, and it would be a relatively simple legislative process—perhaps it's wrong to actually say any legislative process is simple, but there's widespread support to see legislation in this particular area.

I'd also like to understand why Cardiff and Caerphilly—I can understand why, because they've got quite high pollution levels—are submitting plans to your good self and you're awaiting those plans, but why other areas in Wales—and I highlighted Port Talbot, for example—haven't got the same obligation placed on themselves to submit action plans for how they're going to set about improving the air quality that residents and businesses in those areas currently suffer under.

I'd also draw your attention to the proposals that the Conservatives brought forward, under my predecessor in this portfolio responsibility, David Melding, in the 'Liveable Cities' document, which talked about using the planning system and talked about creating clean air zones. There is a road map to make quick gains in this particular area, and I have to say I'm not convinced, reading this statement, that we're going to achieve that. So, I look forward to hearing your answers.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:30, 18 June 2019

Thank you, Andrew, for those questions and comments. Specifically, Cardiff and Caerphilly have very specific concerns around air pollution and I know my officials have been working very closely, not just since I've been in portfolio but when Hannah Blythyn was the Minister for Environment, to address those concerns. We've helped fund their feasibility studies and they are reporting to me by the end of the month.

You mentioned Port Talbot specifically, and obviously we have been doing a great deal of work to understand the issues in the area around air quality. So far this year, monitored levels of particulate matter across all the monitoring sites that we have in Port Talbot have not triggered action through the short-term action plan we have there and do remain within reasonable limits. But again, I think it's really important that we keep on top of that, so I've asked my officials to re-examine that short term action plan to ensure it's still the best way of tackling poor air quality in Port Talbot.

You mentioned the five 50 mph sites. This is a really interesting thing that we brought forward. I actually have one in my own constituency, so obviously I know that one the best. I'm waiting to hear what the outcome is of that 50 mph zone. My concern is that people are not keeping to it. I'm going along at 50 mph and people are overtaking me, I would say, all the time. I think one of the areas where I do have concerns—and this will be addressed when we bring the five sites forward on a permanent basis—is that people don't understand why they are 50 mph sites. So, I think we need signs saying, 'Poor air quality kills, reduce your speed.' So, we're working on that signage, because certainly I've heard people say in Wrexham that they think it's because of speed and why aren't the police enforcing it. So, I think we need to make the public aware of why we're bringing those 50 mph sites in—why we've brought them in, sorry—and why we're going to make them permanent.

In relation to the UK Government, I'm very happy to learn from the UK Government when they're bringing forward ideas and schemes that would help us, and we certainly engage with them on relevant matters in relation to air quality, because as you'll be aware, Welsh Ministers do have limited executive functions. If you think about regulation of construction, for instance, which obviously impacts on this, the equipment of motor vehicles, vehicle specification standards, for instance—so, we are working with the UK Government. 

You're quite right about world health guidelines. Certainly, I've asked—I think I mentioned in my statement that I have asked officials to look at them. I think they're about 50 per cent more stringent than EU levels. So, it's certainly something that I've asked officials to look at, and I'm waiting for further advice on that point. 

You asked about the clean air Act—that was a commitment from the First Minister in his manifesto—and you were asking about the timescale. We are going to consult on a clean air plan for Wales in the autumn and the plan will set out the key pollutants and their effects on public health and, of course, our environment. It will include measures to achieve compliance with all legislative requirements. That will then inform what we bring forward in an Act.

So, I can't give you a timescale, but certainly the First Minister is committed to bringing that forward as soon as possible. I think the point that you make about cross-party agreement—if any legislation process is easy, I think you're right; this could be something that we could look at. I think I would have to update you on the timescale following the consultation in the autumn.

Photo of Llyr Gruffydd Llyr Gruffydd Plaid Cymru 4:35, 18 June 2019

(Translated)

Thank you. It is, of course, clean air week, and I have to say, Minister, that I had expected a statement or a significant announcement from you today, but all we’ve had, really, is echoing your commitment to a clean air Act for Wales, no further detail on the content of such an Act, and very little detail on the timetabling for bringing forward such legislation. So, what progress are you as a Government making in developing this legislation?

You say in your statement that you are committed to a clean air plan for Wales—I already knew that—but there’s been no progress. You’ve just referred to some vague date in the autumn for a consultation, but there's no mention of introducing such a plan. You say in your statement that you are committed to taking all possible steps to improve air quality. Well, where are those additional steps, rather than just some reference to things that you’ve already announced? All that’s contained within this statement is a rehash of previous announcements, and I have to say that that is extremely disappointing.

Now, Plaid Cymru, of course, has raised this issue regularly over the past few years. I remember debates in this Chamber, 12 months and more back, asking for urgent action. Dr Dai Lloyd is the chair of the cross-party group on a clean air Act in the Assembly. So, when will we see a clean air plan published? Not a consultation—when do you intend to bring a plan forward and implement it? When does this Government intend to table a clean air Bill before this Assembly? I had hoped that this Thursday would be the last Clean Air Day for Wales without there being legislation having been adopted and in place. And that, of course, would help us to tackle the scourge of air pollution once and for all. So, when will it happen? Because if we have to wait another 12 months, then what that means, of course, is that the Welsh Government will be suffering an additional 2,000 deaths as a result of air pollution because of those delays, and that is scandalous. It is a national scandal and it is disgraceful.

The Government, your Government and this Assembly has declared a climate emergency—a climate emergency. Public Health Wales has declared that air pollution is a public health crisis—a public health crisis. Now, I wasn’t expecting an update in this statement, not business as usual. It is time, now, for a change of gear and to put one’s foot down, but what we get is a Government on autopilot, and that isn’t acceptable.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:37, 18 June 2019

I'm very disappointed that Llyr has taken that stance. You will have heard my answer to Andrew R.T Davies around the clean air Act. Again, you will have heard—I think you were in the Chamber—Vaughan Gething say about the—. In relation to legislation, Vaughan Gething was talking about statutory instruments; I've done 95 statutory instruments this year. You must realise the constraints that we have on legislation. I will be consulting in the autumn on the clean air plan. I would hope to bring forward a Bill next year, but I will have to update the Chamber and Members regarding that following the consultation. But for the First Minister, it was one of his manifesto commitments when he became First Minister in December, so I know he is very keen to bring forward an Act. 

There is a great deal of work going on across Government. I absolutely agree with you that we need to make progress here, and I mentioned in my statement that one of the main issues we have to deal with is road traffic. And I think the more we can do in relation to bringing forward schemes to ensure that people can access public transport easier, that we encourage walking, we encourage cycling—. We've got the active travel and we've put significant funding into that—£30 million. There's a great deal of monitoring being done across Wales with the local authorities that have had that funding to bring forward their schemes. 

You mentioned the climate emergency. I think it's really important that we don't mix up climate change, air quality and decarbonisation. Whilst of course they're integrated, they are separate things. Certainly, I read something in the press this week that made me think that people are starting to put the things together. And, as I said, there's obviously integration, but I think we do need to make sure that we keep them separate when we're looking at specific issues. 

You asked about what additional things we've done. We've allocated over £20 million for an air quality fund and takes us through to 2021. That is helping us to accelerate compliance with nitrogen dioxide limits and improve air quality across Wales. 

Photo of Mike Hedges Mike Hedges Labour 4:40, 18 June 2019

I welcome the statement. One of the problems we have is that PM2.5s and PM10s cannot be seen, but they do damage to lungs by irritating and corroding the alveolar wall and, consequently, impair lung function. We need clean air. Will the Minister, in conjunction with ministerial colleagues, consider the following: banning new incinerators except for medical incinerators to deal with pathogens; produce plans to reduce air pollution in areas such as Hafod and Fabian Way in Swansea, where it is not the speed limit but the slow-moving and stationary vehicles that are causing the problem; and, finally, banning the burning of waste by individuals in their gardens, which often includes plastics and other items that do serious damage to the air? 

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:41, 18 June 2019

I'm certainly very happy to have those discussions with a range of ministerial colleagues. Clearly, air quality is a matter across Government, and it's certainly discussed in Cabinet. But I will look at all those issues and write to you further. 

Photo of John Griffiths John Griffiths Labour

As you rightly say in your statement, Minister, obviously road traffic is a very significant aspect of air pollution, and we've already heard reference to the problems on the M4 around Newport. Can I say, Minister, that I very much welcome the decision of the First Minister to go forward with an integrated transport response to those problems? It seems to me that the idea that you can deal with the problems caused by road traffic by building more and more roads, which then fill up with more and more traffic journeys, is not a very logical conclusion to come to. What we really need is a step change and that modal shift to get people and freight increasingly off our roads and on to our trains and buses, and, of course, to increase active travel as part of that, so we get the physical fitness health benefits as well as better air to breathe.

Would you agree with me, Minister, that 20 mph zones go very well with the sort of active travel increases that we want to see, and that they also go very well with encouraging our children to cycle, walk and scoot to school, which would be a very important contribution, I think, to dealing with air pollution on our roads, in our streets? Because I think we all know that when the schools are on holiday, there's much less traffic around, much less air pollution. We often see the chaos that exists around schools when parents are finding improbable places to park where they really shouldn't park, engines are left running, stationary vehicles are left with their engines running, and the children are in the middle of all of this, along with the school staff and, indeed, the parents who are walking to school with their children. 

Lots of things can be done to deal with those issues: walking buses, policies to reward children and to make it an aim of the school to increase walking, scooting and cycling. Indeed, Ringland Primary in my constituency has increased that active travel to school by 20 per cent in the last year, and it's now just under half of the pupils that travel to school in that way. It's perfectly possible, but it seems to me we need something more comprehensive right across Wales, something more systemic, Minister, so that it's not left up to individual schools or, indeed, local authorities. 

Just two other matters I'd like to mention. One is taxi fleets. I've mentioned to you before, Minister, that if we had a conversion of taxi fleets to Calor Gas, for example, we'd get a huge improvement as far as the air pollution issues are concerned. And the cost of the conversions typically repay themselves in just a couple of years. I'm puzzled, really, as to why we haven't seen more of that sort of initiative. Also, does your remit on air pollution run to smoking in public places? Because I know many people feel very strongly, particularly people with conditions like asthma, that breathing in smoke in the outdoor areas of cafes and restaurants, in parks, in town and city centres, is a real health hazard to them and a big pollutant of the air that they breathe.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:45, 18 June 2019

Thank you, John Griffiths, for those questions. I have asked officials, because I think you've asked me a couple of times around taxi fleets, and I have asked officials to look specifically at Calor Gas and to see where else in the world they are used to be able to inform that.

Smoking in public places, no, it doesn't come within my remit, but, as I said, this is a matter for every member of the Government, so I'll ensure that the Minister for Health and Social Services hears your comments. For those of us who don't suffer with respiratory disease, smoke—certainly the change, and obviously Wales was the first country to ban smoking in enclosed places, and we now accept that as completely normal, whereas not that long ago when you went into a pub, for instance, smoking was allowed and the impact it must have had on so many of us—.

In relation to schools, I think you raise a really important point and, also, around behavioural change. The primary school that you mention from your own constituency is clearly a good example of that. If we think how we started raising public awareness and behavioural change around recycling, for instance, and climate change, it's with young people, so I think this is an excellent example of the school run, for want of a better word. Certainly, we know that the school run has a significant contribution in relation to levels of air pollution and traffic congestion on our roads within many school catchment areas, and that's certainly during the term-time rush-hour, as you alluded to. I think there's also the potential, going back to that behavioural change that is needed, for schools to help educate both children and parents on the issues around air quality and help us explore potential solutions, such as car sharing and if there are no-idling policies also on and around school grounds. So, we do give statutory guidance to local authorities, because we do recognise that schools and active travel routes, amongst others, are sort of sensitive receptor locations.

Photo of Joyce Watson Joyce Watson Labour 4:47, 18 June 2019

We've got four speakers left and 15 minutes. I'll just highlight that. The next speaker is Mark Reckless.

Photo of Mark Reckless Mark Reckless Conservative

Minister, could you clarify about the 50 mph limits? Five of them, you're saying, are now being made permanent. What evidence have we got as to how they've worked in terms of reducing or otherwise the pollutants we're concerned about? I get representations particularly around the 50 mph limit approaching the Brynglas tunnels, and I know there can be other reasons for that, but the emphasis recently has been on the air pollution when I've had responses. I just wonder how successful or otherwise that has been. Some people suggest that the reduction to 50 mph actually causes traffic to concertina in a way that leads to some of the congestion, and an inspector on the M4 said that the relief road would reduce climate change emissions and air pollution. Clearly, you're not going ahead with that, but is this 50 mph limit having the effect you would like?

Could you also clarify—? I think you made a remark about the one in or near your constituency, about police perhaps not enforcing in the same way they would if it was a question of normal speeding. Are these limits dealt with by the police in the same way as ones where the issue is safety as opposed to air pollution?

You said in your statement that the need for rules at EU level reflects the fact that air pollution does not respect national borders. That may be the case for some pollutants—sulphur dioxide would be an obvious example—but for the ones we're most concerned about here—the nitrogen dioxide and the particulates—they're actually hyper-localised. I'm very careful when I walk my three children along a main road as part of them getting to school. Even just being on the pavement away from the cars, the medical advice is that that's significantly better.

You say you don't want us to mix up climate change and air quality, but public policy has done that. Whether it's the European Union with its diesel standards and lax or non-enforcement of those or whether it's Gordon Brown with his tax incentives to move away from petrol towards diesel, it's those in combination that have led us to much of the pollution problem we have now for air quality on the nitrogen dioxide and on the particulates, which are so severe and which, as Andrew R.T. Davies said, are killing 2,000 people a year prematurely. Do you now accept that it was a mistake to incentivise a switch from petrol to diesel? And while, no doubt, you would prefer people to go electric and the UK Government's just withdrawn some of the incentives on that, is it better for people to buy petrol rather than diesel cars, notwithstanding the higher carbon dioxide emissions in that area? Thank you.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:50, 18 June 2019

Thank you. In relation to the 50 mph sites, I think it's fair to say the evidence is mixed. In relation to the Wrexham one, what I said was I don't think people understand why there is a 50 mph site imposed. They think it's because of traffic calming or reducing speed and they wonder why the police aren't enforcing it. I didn't say the police would be enforcing it in relation to carbon emissions. So, what I have said is I would like to continue with the 50 mph sites, the five of them, but there must be signage explaining exactly what the reduction is for because I don't think people understand that. So, certainly the one in Wrexham, which I know the best because it's in my constituency, just says, 'Emissions reduction'. It's just a little sign that says, 'Emissions reduction', which people clearly don't understand. So, I don't think people have been adhering to it because I think there has been a little bit of confusion as to what it's for and because if they think it's because of speed and it's not being enforced, then they don't stick to the 50 mph. Certainly, the evidence that I've seen from across the five sites is mixed, but I think if we have signage saying very clearly that poor air quality kills—and I think that you have to sometimes shock people—then people will adhere to the reduction more willingly.

I think hindsight's a wonderful thing. Certainly, I remember when we were all told to get diesel cars. What I would like to see now is a move to electric vehicles more. Unfortunately, we need the infrastructure to go with it, and we gave £2 million to put more electric vehicle charging points, for instance, in across Wales because we need to make sure that people can get about without the worry of running out of charge and then not being able to find a charging point. I think we need to do a significant amount of work to make sure that we have the infrastructure in place.

Photo of Joyce Watson Joyce Watson Labour 4:52, 18 June 2019

I've got three speakers now, and if they're all succinct, I might get you all in. So, it's up to you. The next speaker is Vikki Howells.

Photo of Vikki Howells Vikki Howells Labour

Thank you, Minister, for your statement today. This is such an important issue, especially when we all know the harm that air pollution causes. Like so many of the Valleys communities, my area is one where air was contaminated by heavy industry with the iconic Phurnacite smokeless fuel plant closing 30 years ago, but the legacy that that's left, particularly with respiratory conditions in the community, are still very much ongoing.

I've just got two questions for you today. The first is also around the 50 mph zones. There's one, as you will know, at Pontypridd and Upper Boat, which is just outside of my constituency, and I'd concur with the comments that you made there. I travel through that zone virtually every day and I feel like I'm the only one who's travelling at 50 mph, and there are definitely no signs there to explain why it is a 50 mph zone. I do think that local people would actually be much more supportive if they knew the reason for that, to the extent that I've actually had representations from constituents who live just north of that zone in my constituency, at Cilfynydd, who have asked me why the zone can't be extended to cover their area as well. They do know that that is about air quality emissions and they're particularly concerned because Pontypridd High School sits right next to the A470 there and there's a proposal to co-locate Cilfynydd Primary School onto the same site. I've had very strong representation from people there who would welcome the extension of the 50 mph zone to cover and protect the children in that area. So, I wonder what your thoughts are in regard to that.

And my final question is just to note the social justice angle here as well, which you alluded to in your statement. We know that deprivation, health inequalities and air pollution are so very closely linked, so I wonder what discussions you've been having with other ministerial colleagues about how we can tackle that.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:54, 18 June 2019

I thank Vikki Howells for those two questions and I absolutely agree with you because I've had representations from my own constituents around this 50 mph, and I think you're quite right that local people would be much more willing to drive at 50 mph because I sometimes feel I'm the only one driving at 50 mph. That's not actually true, but it just feels like that, and particularly when people are whizzing past you. But if there was a sign saying exactly what that was for and, as I say, sometimes it's necessary to shock people. So, officials and I have been pondering about what wording to use because you've only actually got about four words to use and then it obviously will need to be bilingual. So, you don't want massive signs, but equally it needs to be very powerful, I think, to make people realise.

In relation to an extension, I'll probably have a look at the ongoing evidence—as I say, it's very mixed at the moment, but I think it's mixed because people don't understand the purpose of it—before considering any extensions. And you're quite right, it is about social justice and about addressing those inequalities. You mentioned heavy industry in your opening remarks, and certainly there are conversations around a further extension of the ban on smoking in public places that John Griffiths alluded to, so I am having those discussions across Government.

Photo of Jenny Rathbone Jenny Rathbone Labour 4:56, 18 June 2019

As you say, the single biggest problematic source of air pollution is road traffic, so it isn't sufficient to simply move from diesel to petrol, or even, indeed, to electric cars. You still get loads of particulates from the wheels.

You mention that you're getting these feasibility studies from Cardiff and Caerphilly councils on how they're going to achieve legal limits for nitrogen dioxide in the shortest possible time frame, so I hope your panel of experts will pick up on the fact that whilst the plan for the city centre is very good news, particularly for the residents of Westgate Street, where they are suffering really significant levels of air pollution, there really isn't very much to address the wider issues of the air pollution that Andrew R.T. Davies mentioned in his initial contribution.

Children don't live in the city centre. Whilst I welcome the zero-emission buses that are due to go down Newport Road, which is where there are several schools as well as quite a lot of very built up residential areas, particularly houses in multiple occupation—these are not the people who get choices about where they live—nevertheless, there's another area where there's nothing that will make anything better for the schools around the Llanedeyrn interchange with the A48. There are three schools and a nursery and very significant levels of air pollution, and I know that there are significant respiratory problems there. So, I feel that there is more needed from Cardiff to ensure that people across the city are addressing this matter and are making that shift to active travel.

I particularly would like you, in your clean air plan, to look at the misnomered school run, because it's neither a run nor a walk or even a cycle. And, really, that seems to me one of the first ways in which we reduce traffic because it's evident when the schools are on holiday that there's a massive reduction in traffic. So, for starters, if we could get all secondary schools in urban areas with active travel routes so that young people could either cycle or walk to school, that would be so much better for developing their independence as well as for the environment in general. So, I hope that you might be able to address this in your clean air plan, which we look forward to.

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 4:59, 18 June 2019

Thank you, Jenny Rathbone, for those comments and questions. As you say, and as I've stated in earlier answers, Cardiff council are required to submit a final plan to me by the end of this month as to how they are going to achieve the statutory nitrogen dioxide limit values in their area within the shortest possible time. And I will have this independent expert review panel, who I've asked to scrutinise evidence. I want that information as quickly as possible—I've said by the end of next month. At the moment, it would be inappropriate for me to comment further on the council plans at this stage.

You're quite right around vehicles. It is road traffic that does have such a massive impact, and we do need to encourage a shift. And going back to what you were saying about the school run, we need to encourage a shift from over-reliance, I think, on the private car, to much more sustainable modes of transport such as walking and cycling and public transport, and that's obviously a key element of our policy approach.

I mentioned in an earlier answer about active travel. We've put significant funding into that—£60 million over three years. And I'd be very interested—again, it's not within my portfolio, but I'd be very interested to see the monitoring that's being done around active travel and how local authorities are ensuring that it's safer for people to cycle and walk. And, again, within my own constituency, I've seen cycle paths that just finish—that's not acceptable, and we need to make sure that our monitoring is robust and that local authorities are coming forward with this form of—. Well, they're not a form of transport, but they're making it easier for people to put the car to one side. And I know more people use buses than rail, but I think it's important, the steps we're taking in relation to rail, and certainly Transport for Wales are investing in new, cleaner rolling stock, and also, obviously, we'll have the south Wales metro and the north Wales metro, which will hopefully be coming to fruition over the next few years.

Photo of Joyce Watson Joyce Watson Labour 5:01, 18 June 2019

And the last speaker, Huw Irranca-Davies.

Photo of Huw Irranca-Davies Huw Irranca-Davies Labour

Thank you. I do welcome the statement today, and I only have one question. I note that back in 1854, a young doctor called John Snow, who worked in Soho in London at the height of a cholera epidemic, plotted on a map with dots exactly where the cholera outbreak was going, and using that evidence actually dealt with a cholera outbreak that was linked to one contaminated sewage pipe that was close to a septic tank and so on. We have the evidence clearly now of the catastrophic impact this is having on shortening young lives, on the proximity to schools and other places, so we do need to act. So, I do welcome it today.

My question is as simple as this: I have huge faith in the Minister, in bringing forward her action plan, that it will have the degree of granularity as well as ambition that will help to make the changes we need to avoid this being the cholera epidemic of our age, across the whole of the UK and western society, but here in Wales particularly. But the reason it's been driven so hard over the last decade is because of groups like ClientEarth and others, who have been able to bring actions against UK Government. Andrew R.T. Davies said how well the UK Government is doing—the reason that they've upped their ante is because ClientEarth have now said to them, 'We will take you back and back and back and back to court', and they've upped the ante on a strategy. Can we have that guarantee, going forward, now and in a post-Brexit scenario, that citizens or citizens' organisations can hold Governments to account to ensure, if that Minister was not there, and some Minister lacking the ambition or lacking the ability to deliver wasn't doing it, that citizens could hold Government accountable—take them to court, sue them and force their hand to deal with this epidemic, now, that is right across the UK?

Photo of Lesley Griffiths Lesley Griffiths Labour 5:03, 18 June 2019

Thank you. Just to answer your specific point: it's absolutely vital that there is a body that residents and individuals and citizens of Wales can go to if they wish to do that.