2. Will the Minister make a statement on the disposal of public sector property assets? OAQ54117

The Welsh Government supports the principles of good asset management, including surplus asset disposal processes. Through published guidance such as 'Managing Welsh Public Money' and the continued work on asset collaboration led by Ystadau Cymru, we seek to embed best practice across the Welsh public sector.

Thank you. Best practice is all good in theory. The transformation of public services across Wales has seen the disposal of some property assets. However, considerable estate remains, including the 137 surplus properties owned by Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. The cost of maintaining this estate has now been estimated at £838 million over a 15-year period. Now, when considering that this health board sees the biggest deficit out of Wales, and seven NHS health boards at the end of 2018-19 are also seeing deficits, such expenditure does seem unsustainable and inappropriate. Now, there is a theory—you can correct me if I'm wrong—that if they do sell some of their assets no longer required, money comes back to the central pot here. So, one could argue, in businesses terms, with the health board already now into the fifth term of special measures, perhaps it's not on their main list of their priorities, having to deal with this. What steps can you take as a Welsh Government to work with the Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board and maybe, just maybe, look at any revenues that come from the disposal of those surplus assets actually going back in some way—not all of it, maybe, but some of it—so that they can actually use the money that is tied up now in those surplus buildings towards better outcomes for the patients in north Wales?

There is a financial limit at which health boards can retain the funds for any assets they dispose of, but above that limit then, the funds do come back to Welsh Government. And I think that's only right in the sense that the Welsh Government will have the overview across the whole of the Welsh public sector, and the Welsh NHS, in order to understand the pressures that are arising at that particular time. However, we have provided access to an online resource, which brings together guidance and advice for public sector estates work. The Ystadau Cymru group is pan-public sector group, working with health boards on encouraging the different public sector bodies to share and learn from their experience. We've got the asset collaboration programme in Wales, and during the last two financial years, funding has been made available to them in order to help drive their asset management improvements. But that also includes data quality, which can identify assets that those organisations can dispose of. But on the basis of what you've said to me today, I will ask the Chair of Ystadau Cymru to have a conversation with Betsi Cadwaladr health board to see if there is more work that they can do and that Welsh Government can do to support them in identifying assets that could be sold.FootnoteLink  

Information further to Plenary

Janet Finch-Saunders raised important issues, but I just want to look at this from a slightly different angle. In the context of the climate emergency that we've declared, we obviously need to reduce our food miles and encourage more people to grow their own or source their food locally. So, I just wondered, when you're considering surplus assets, whether you might consider the provision of new allotment sites for people close to where they live, where there are none available, because that would enable people who don't currently have a garden, don't currently have a place to grow their vegetables, to be able to do that. So, I wondered if you'd let us know whether you'd give that sort of thing any consideration in these things. 

The current key criteria for consideration when considering how to manage assets or dispose of assets include creating economic growth, delivering more integrated and customer-focused services, generating capital receipts, reducing running costs and decarbonisation of the public estate. But Julie James, Ken Skates and I have been doing a piece of work that looks across the Welsh public sector, particularly in terms of the land that we own, to see if we can take a much more strategic approach to that in the light of the First Minister's election manifesto, where he did say that he wanted to set up a division for land within Welsh Government, and then look at how we can work in a collaborative way with local authorities, with health boards and others who do have land or assets within their portfolios. And part of that work will be about redefining how we think of value for money. So, it's not about selling off a plot of land or an asset for the best possible price, but actually it's about considering value for money in the round—so, thinking about our responsibilities in terms of climate change, but also what the benefit could be for the local community. Your example is one of those things that certainly will be part of that mix in terms of considering best value. 

Cabinet Minister, the saga of land at Lisvane in Cardiff being sold for £1.8 million by the regeneration investment fund for Wales, and subsequently sold for £39 million, has been well documented. But we understand that legal proceedings were issued in December 2017 against the two companies who were advisers to RIFW at the time, namely Amber Fund Management and the Lambert Smith Hampton group. Could the Minister update us on the latest situation with regard to these legal proceedings? 

I was the Minister in charge of that portfolio when those legal proceedings were taken forward. Unfortunately, they are still ongoing. So, as such, I am unable to update now, but I know the Minister for housing, who now has this within her portfolio, will obviously be keen to update Members as soon as there is something that we are able to say.