2. Will the Minister make a statement on measures to manage Cadw-owned land? OAQ54120

Thank you for that question. Cadw manages historic properties that are in the ownership or guardianship of Welsh Ministers in accordance with its published conservation principles. Cadw’s management also reflects its statutory duties in areas such as public health and safety and Welsh Government policy agendas, including sustainability.

On Friday last week, Wayne David MP and I met with Cadw, particularly to discuss this issue, and they confirmed on the evening of 16 May they'd approved contractors to shoot a number of birds within the grounds of Caerphilly castle in order to control their numbers. There was a witness to this, and the witness posted pictures on social media, and these were carried by the Caerphilly Observer. As a result, there was something of a public outcry regarding the shooting of birds at the castle. Cadw unilaterally decided to suspend this approach, and they've told us that they've suspended it pending the outcome of a review of how they control bird populations on the castle grounds. It's emerged that Cadw have been able to use this as a means for some considerable time under the terms of a general licence awarded by Natural Resources Wales. In England, these licences are no longer awarded as the result of a legal challenge, and that is ongoing. The powers over these licences are devolved, as I understand it, and therefore in the responsibility of the Welsh Government. Will you give us some clarity on that, on those grounds, but also would you commit Welsh Government to supporting Cadw to find alternative ways to control bird populations at places like Caerphilly castle?

Thank you for the way you've pursued this issue. I can confirm that everything that you say factually is correct. The activity of Cadw in controlling feral pigeons is permitted under a general licence derived from the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981, which, as you say, is issued by Natural Resources Wales. Cadw have trialled a number of ways to control feral pigeons in the past, including using localised netting, blocking up holes in historic fabric—which, I'm sure you appreciate, is rather difficult—installing anti-perching spikes, using ultrasound, lifelike plastic deterrents and even birds of prey. These have not proven as effective as they would have wished, but I can not only confirm that the activity that Cadw undertook was legal, but in view of the concern that has been expressed by you today, and, indeed, by members of the public, Cadw has agreed to undertake a review. They assure me that this review will take place urgently, and that no further activity of the kind that you describe will take place until that review is completed. The review will include detailed advice about the environmental and the public health aspects of the control of feral pigeons, and I will certainly involve you and any other Members who are particularly concerned about these incidents in the discussions, after the review is completed.

May I put on record my thanks to the Deputy Minister for his prompt response in dealing with the issue of vandalism at the Roman amphitheatre in Caerleon, which is managed by Cadw? I understand that an anti-social behaviour working group, which includes representatives from Cadw, Gwent Police, Newport City Council and the local community, met on 23 May to consider a range of options to tackle the issue. Can the Deputy Minister advise whether any proposals have been forthcoming following that meeting and will he ask Cadw to review security at other sites they manage also suffering from the same anti-social behaviour in Wales?

Thank you for making those remarks. I have not yet seen a detailed report of those discussions, but I can confirm that they have taken place. The issue that we face, and I’ve been to the site, of course—to Caerleon and other historic sites—. The difficulty with these sites is, if you fence them in, then that doesn’t make them attractive for people to visit. It’s a balance, always, between the minimum protection required for sites to ensure that they’re not misused and the deterrent that it would form for people if sites were, as it where, overprotected. So, I still have some faith in the potential of education and, in particular, the involvement of young people in conservation activities themselves—I can see that my colleague the education Minister is nodding—and the various programmes that we have now with young ambassadors and young apprentices within Cadw and in other parts of my responsibilities are ways of introducing young people to the habits of conservation so that they don’t feel the need to cause any damage to what are, after all, very historic sites.