Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 3:07 pm on 9 July 2019.
Diolch, Llyr, for your support for the Bill, and certainly I welcomed the conversation I had with both yourself and Andrew R.T. Davies before this statement today. Regarding your questions about the time it will take for the Bill to come into force, I anticipate, with support, the Bill proceeding to a stage where we would get Royal Assent in May. As I've stated, the Bill will come into force on 1 December 2020. By that time, both the circuses that currently travel and use wild animals will be expected to have completed their touring and then returned to their winter quarters. Certainly, I think, I'm very open to bringing that date forward if at all possible and I think there may be an opportunity to do that if the UK Government delivers on its commitment to introduce a ban in England by the time that their licensing regulations expire, because, obviously, it's the UK Government that's responsible for the licensing of circuses, not us. If they do the ban before their licensing regulations expire in January 2020, I think there would be a possibility of us bringing that date forward. So, again, any decision to do that, I'm very happy to look at that.
In relation to your question around loopholes, certainly, if you think about it, there are far, far more animals that are being used as animal exhibits than, obviously, animals in circuses. So, that's why the animal exhibits scheme is so important, and I mentioned in my answer to Andrew R.T. Davies that I will be going out to consultation before the end of summer recess and I would certainly want to see that scheme come into play, I would say, as early in 2020 as possible.
In relation to, 'Why does the offence only apply to wild animals and not all animals?'—and I'm aware of the petition that's recently been started—there are not the same fundamental, ethical objections to the use of domesticated animals in travelling circuses or other similar settings. The ethical argument for a ban in the case of wild animals, I believe, is very strong; I think the argument for a ban on domesticated animals is less than clear cut. And if you think about it, there are many activities that involve domesticated animals travelling for the purpose of giving performances or exhibitions with little obvious wider benefits, which are considered to be perfectly acceptable by society in general. The example I'm always given—and I think we discussed this—is horses and show jumping, and I think it would be very difficult to argue that they should not be used to perform a similar activity in a travelling circus.
Somebody asked me about what would happen if we had, then, a static circus. As far as I'm aware, there certainly was one static circus in the UK, I'm not sure it's still there, but again, it's about ensuring that there are no loopholes in any legislation. So, certainly, the legal advice I was given is that it would then probably have to be licensed as a zoo, for instance, but there is legislation to cover such things.
You asked me about respondents in relation to ones who came from Wales, and certainly, I'd be very happy if it's possible to provide that information. However, I have to say I think it was something like 97 per cent of respondents were for us bringing this Bill forward, so therefore, I don't think you would need the weighting in perhaps a way that you would need in other legislation.