8. Plaid Cymru Debate: Assembly Reform

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 6:20 pm on 10 July 2019.

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Photo of Hefin David Hefin David Labour 6:20, 10 July 2019

More, absolutely more. And I can see the First Minister nodding away vigorously there. [Laughter.]

I've had conversations with Members, as recommended by the Llywydd in the previous debate. I've had conversations with Members across the Chamber. I've spoken to the leader of Plaid Cymru and to Siân Gwenllian today, I've spoken to Jayne Bryant, and one of the things that Jayne Bryant said to me is we need to look at representation as a whole across the UK and how our representation works. I buy into that argument.

One of the things I was disappointed with Plaid Cymru—I could have signed up to their motion but for that '2021'. Personally, I'd like to see it by 2021, but you've got to have, as Huw Irranca-Davies said, realpolitik, and you've got to bring people with you. I don't want to see another referendum in this country, I'm sick of referenda, and I think they're alien to representative democracy, but I still think you need a mandate for this particular change, and that mandate has got to be put into a manifesto that is presented at an Assembly election. I think if we had Liberal Democrats, Labour and Plaid Cymru particularly, but inviting all the other parties to join in and say, 'We are united on this,' then we'd have that mandate going into 2026. Who knows who will be in Government? Who knows who will be implementing it? But we know it would be implemented because there would be a cross-party majority—[Interruption.]