Questions now from the party spokespeople. Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Leanne Wood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. Last week, you accepted in principle the recommendation that all new affordable homes should be as close as possible to zero carbon by 2021, subject to the outcome of your building regulations review. However, the homes likely to be completed and available in 2021 are those homes that form part of the applications going through the planning process at the moment. Will you therefore put on record that planning departments evaluating these applications at the moment should be securing zero-carbon homes, and making decisions now that are self-evidently in the framework for housing that you've set for the future? 

We've recently written to planning authorities asking them to review some of the policies in the light of 'Planning Policy Wales', but it is a plan-led process and the plans have a lifetime of their own. So, we're asking through the Welsh Local Government Association and through local authority leads for them to review the local development plan process. And as you know, we're about to go out to consultation on the national development framework that will put the overarching strategy in place. It's not possible to instantly change the planning system in the way that you say, but we are taking all the steps to change it as fast as we can and keep the plan-led process in place and sustainable—clearly with a view to going to the place where you want us to be, but we do have to do that in accordance with the plans themselves.

A climate emergency means that decisions being taken now have to be consistent with the aspirations for a zero-carbon economy; it's not good enough to just keep delaying things, Minister. But moving to the issue of planning, you'll be aware that my colleague wrote to you recently asking to adjust planning policy to reflect the fact that, when considering the issue of the M4, the First Minister attached greater weight to environmental considerations than the planning inspector did. It seems that your reply didn't quite understand the issue. If the view of the Government, as expressed by the First Minister, is that the declaration of a climate emergency means that environmental considerations should have greater weight in planning than the planning inspector was prepared to attach to them, then surely you should accept that all planning decisions should now be attaching greater weight to environmental considerations than would have been the case six months ago before you declared a climate emergency? Will you therefore put on the record that that is your Government's view, and if you're not prepared to do that, can you explain the inconsistency that will invariably result? 

I don't think there is an inconsistency. The planning process is not a science; it is a set of judgments based on a set of plans in a system that is plan-led. And so, you have to look at the system in the round, and each person who makes a decision, or each committee that makes a decision, will bring some human subjective judgment to how they see the plans. We put out guidance for that, but you can't take away the decision makers' individual weighting for that inside the plan-led process. The First Minister made it very apparent that it's perfectly possible to view that process in that way. We have regular conversations with all levels of the planning process about how those plans should be applied. But in the end, it's the individual decision maker's ability to bring that subjective judgment to bear inside the planning process. Now, I am not in a position—and I understand what you're trying to say—nor would any other decision maker, nor any other Minister anywhere in a plan-led process, be in a position to mandate the decision maker at any point in that system to give a specific sort of weight to a specific policy. Clearly, we have made it very clear that we want environmental considerations to be absolutely at the top of that tree in the consideration, in the round of that planning decision, that individual planning decision.

The most important part of that process is in the plan itself, and this is the thing that we're always trying to get across—that people need to be engaged in the plan itself, so the plan itself sets out the parameters for that. So, when the local authority sets out its plan, or revises its plan, or puts its specific planning policies in place, that's the point in time that you want the greatest emphasis put on the kinds of environmental outcomes that you and I would both like to see in this process. And as we go forward with the national development framework, and then, subsequent to that, the strategic planning arrangements, and we have a full planning process in Wales, that plan will lead people through that process in that way. But you can't eliminate completely the decision maker's ability to bring their subjective judgment to a set of plans. It's not a science. 

I'd like to look even further now beyond 2021, Minister. It's clear that some of the technology that's going to be used in housing will effectively turn some houses into mini power stations, capable of generating the electricity that those communities will use, and even, in some cases, make those houses profitable. This, of course, is really exciting, but there's a risk that if we don't embrace this concept in a planned way, it could exacerbate existing social divides. Wealthy people will buy homes that will generate income for them, but those on the lowest incomes will either be left with the oldest housing stock that are expensive to run, or if they do live in newer homes, the income from such energy will be passed on to housing associations or private landlords. Will you therefore outline how your Government intends to ensure that the poorest people in our society will benefit from a green revolution?

Certainly, and I completely agree with you about the excitement of a distributed energy system, and the ability of that to bring a social justice element into that system that the old centralised system would never have been able to achieve. And we're very excited to be able to do that. Tomorrow morning, I will be receiving the reports of the decarbonisation working group, and I've had some meetings with the group, so I have a little bit of a trail, I suppose, of what they're going to say. And I know that they're very interested in much of the thing that you've just set out there, the ability to exploit the technology of the future in making homes into power stations. It's part of the proposed plans for the Swansea city deal. I'm sure you know that the homes as power stations element of that is in there, and we're very keen on doing that. 

One of the other things that I'll be doing shortly, when I've got all of these reports back on housing in the round, is looking again at the setting of our rent policies. And in the setting of our rent policies, one of the things we'll want to look at is the social justice of the kind of thing that you're talking about. So, where somebody's home is used as a power station, and they're a tenant in a social rented place, I would like to see the benefit of that power coming back to that tenant, either in very much reduced bills, or in reduced rent, or a trade-off between the two. So, I'll be looking very carefully at the rent policy, to make sure that the kinds of injustice you're talking about do not occur in that system, and that the people who run their homes in that way get the benefit back to them, either, as I say, in reduced bills or shared services, or in reduced rent in certain circumstances and so on. And we'll be looking to have a flexible rent policy, without preannouncing the policies that I'm looking at. But, in the round, we'll be looking to have a flexible rent policy that gives credit to registered social landlords and councils that put those kinds of mitigating things in place, and that that should be reflected in the terms and conditions of the tenants that live in those homes. 

And in terms of the private rented sector, of course, we will also be, in responding to the affordable homes and the decarbonisation agenda, putting measures in place about what we expect the private rented sector to do in that regard as well.

Conservative spokesperson, Mark Isherwood. 

Diolch, Llywydd. I want to focus my questions on your responsibilities as Minister for fair work and welfare reform. I note the Welsh Government website says your fair work responsibilities include both opportunity for access, growth and progression, and for safe, healthy and inclusive working environments.

On Monday, as you may be aware, I was privileged to sponsor the young disabled persons political skills day event in the Welsh Parliament to celebrate UN World Youth Skills Day and the skills of young disabled people in Wales, organised by Leonard Cheshire Cymru, Children in Wales, and Whizz-Kidz. As I said, disabled young people are currently one of the most marginalised groups, and, all too often, society has failed to recognise their talent, their creativity, their ability to see the world in a way that's often different to others, their lived experience, which can help identify and tackle the barriers of access and inclusion they face. And those young people raised many matters with me and other members of the question panel later that morning, particularly—not exclusively—around the barriers they face, not only to employment, but to the type of employment that maximises the skills that each of them individually has. For example, one of the questions was: 'What more should be done to help us understand our benefits to make informed choices about work, and how are people with disabilities expected to get a job when there's a lack of accessible facilities such as Changing Places toilets?'

So, how will you incorporate those needs, those wants, those ambitions, those opportunities, into your work on fair work and welfare reform, noting, for example, the joint work you've done with the Department for Work and Pensions on Communities for Work, the work that Remploy Cymru is doing with the work and health programme, the DWP disability confidence scheme, and, of course, the Access to Work scheme?

Yes, it's a very important point. I too have had the real pleasure of working with some of the young people who work with Leonard Cheshire, including last year, in my previous portfolio, meeting with a young man who I very seriously hope to see here amongst us very shortly, who told me that his ambition to be a politician was thwarted by his use of a wheelchair. And I went to some great length to explain to him that, on the contrary, it was a real benefit, and would be a real boon to us as decision makers to have a young person such as him in our number. So, I really do hope, if he's listening, that he's continuing to pursue that. So, I completely agree with what you say.

There are a number of things that we're doing through the fair work agenda, but actually across the Government in other ways as well. Many of the things you mentioned are not directly in my portfolio, but I work closely with my colleague the Deputy Minister on some of those matters, around making sure that our employers become disability-inclusive employers, that they are aware of and make the right kinds of reasonable adjustments for people, and that disabled people—of any sort, whatever their disability—do not face additional hurdles, but actually have a workplace levelled out, so that they do not have to jump through any hoops, but that those hoops are removed for them. And we will be looking, as part of our fair work agenda, through the economic contract and otherwise, to reward companies that step up to that plate, and to make sure that, through our trade union colleagues and through our social partnership working, we drive the kind of culture and behaviours that encourage and reward good employers to come forward, and make sure that they do that in that way.

We're also looking, through the Parents, Childcare and Employment scheme and other mechanisms, at a whole series of other interventions across the economy portfolio and my colleague the Chief Whip's disabilities and equalities portfolios to make sure that we make sure that the employers themselves are aware of the assistance that they can get in making those reasonable adjustments, and that they regard the people who are applying to them who do have a disability as an asset and not as a problem. Because I do think that that cultural shift is really important, so that people can see the talent in front of them, and not just the wheelchair or the disability. So, I think I'm largely agreeing with what you're saying. I'm more than happy to look at any other suggestions that either Leonard Cheshire or you, Mark, want to put forward.

Thank you. And I think the key message that came through was that the young people—many of them were unaware of even the schemes that exist currently, so it's how we can engage with them in the design and delivery of those programmes, rather than as recipients, if somebody chooses to tell them about this. And I think the young man you refer to might have been the person who chaired, brilliantly, the question-time panel that we had on Monday morning.

Speaking here in October 2016, I highlighted concerns expressed by Oxfam Cymru, which they then said remained unanswered in the Welsh Government's programme for government, 'Taking Wales Forward'. And they suggested reforms based on something I think I've heard you refer to in committee—the sustainable livelihoods approach. Their three-year building livelihoods and strengthening communities in Wales project had helped over 1,100 people to get their lives on track, helping them identify their strengths and assets, in order to identify the root problems preventing them from reaching their potential. And they said it also made financial sense, securing an average return of £4.39 for every £1 spent. How do you therefore respond to their statement that embedding the sustainable livelihoods approach in all policy and service delivery in Wales will help people to break out of poverty and into fair work, and assuming—and I think you will—you agree with that statement, what work are you doing to incorporate that as you go forward?

I do agree with that statement very much, and, actually, that specific piece of work is in the Deputy Minister's portfolio. I did have responsibility for it in my previous portfolio, so I'm very much aware of it.

In terms of what we're trying to do with a broader fair work agenda—what we're trying to do is make sure that, through our social partnership working, we change the culture in Wales so that companies are much more likely to take people who are coming off programmes such as that in, either on work experience or on extended paid internships or on apprenticeship schemes, shared or otherwise, and so on.

I will say that we also very much encourage young people of that sort to join a trade union. The trade union movement is excellent at helping people access the benefits that they're entitled to and to working with our employers to make sure that the employers themselves are also aware of what their members are entitled to.

So, my message would be: of course, we are very interested in working with Oxfam Cymru. I was very familiar with that scheme before, particularly their work with young women. I know that my colleague the Deputy Minister is taking that work forward as well. But young people in those circumstances should definitely join their local trade union and make sure that they get access to all of the benefits that that kind of working life can bring.

Clearly, it's important, as you indicate, that we see people's strengths and utilise their own understanding of themselves and the barriers they encounter in order to turn those barriers into opportunities.

But, again, in referring to and bringing all these points together—welfare reform and the sustainable livelihoods approach—the partnership project being implemented across Wales between Oxfam Cymru and the DWP delivers poverty awareness for Wales to DWP front-line staff and managers and introduces an evidence-based toolkit and resource pack using the sustainable livelihoods approach. Originally, it was delivered by an Oxfam staff member, to train DWP staff, and last September, a DWP staff member was seconded to Oxfam as training project lead across Wales. The interim evaluation found that 90 per cent of trained DWP and community partner staff, trained in the sustainable livelihoods approach, reported an increase in awareness of poverty issues in Wales, and 80 per cent reported that they will regularly use the sustainable livelihoods approach. So, how, again, will or is the Welsh Government engaged with this project? And whether it is or it isn't—it's not named here as a partner—how will it integrate this sort of work into its own fair work work as it goes forward?

So, again, that's not particularly in my portfolio, so I'll have to ask the Deputy Minister to come back to you about the specifics of that particular programme, which I'm not familiar with, I'm afraid.FootnoteLink 

We have been, through my Deputy Minister, Hannah Blythyn, in communication with the UK Government on a range of issues to do with welfare. And can I say that I very much welcome the approach of the DWP in Wales for that kind of person-centred approach, which we can only recommend.

But I have to say that, one of the biggest reasons that we have poverty in Wales is because the welfare benefits system is not fit for purpose and simply does not deliver the kind of money to people that they need to live on. And the very cruel bedroom tax and capping system has a particularly detrimental effect on people who live in poverty. So, actually, my own view would be that the very best thing you can do with welfare, although I welcome the trauma-centred approach that you're talking about, would be to make it enough money for people to actually live off.

Information further to Plenary

Question 3—Nick Ramsay.

You're on.

Sorry, I thought he had a third question then, or fourth question.

No, no, it's you.

It's me.