9. Debate on the General Principles of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 7:06 pm on 17 September 2019.

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Photo of Dawn Bowden Dawn Bowden Labour 7:06, 17 September 2019

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. And, as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, which is one of the committees that scrutinised this Bill, I'm very pleased to commend its recommendations to you. I believe that our scrutiny has been thorough, and can I also add my thanks to those of Lynne Neagle to those individuals and organisations that gave their time to come in and discuss with us the issues that arise from, what, on the face of the Bill, is a very narrow matter? But, while the Bill may be narrow in scope to remove the defence of reasonable punishment of children, the evidence that we heard was very wide-ranging, and is hugely significant in the debate around the rights of the child. As a committee, we deliberated on the evidence, I thought, in a constructive way, though, on this occasion, it was unfortunate that not all of the committee was able to agree all of the recommendations—a reflection, I have no doubt, of the strongly held views on both sides of the debate. 

But, Llywydd, for my contribution, I just want to cover four areas of evidence that we heard. First, and I think at the heart of this change in the law, is the recognition of the rights of the child, and, flowing from that, a need for parents to engage in more effective forms of corrective actions. And that's why I support the need for a period of time to prepare for the implementation of the change in the law, should it be passed by this Assembly. Because it's not just about the law; it's also an important change in the culture of parenting. And so I'm very pleased to hear the Deputy Minister say that the Government will be bringing forward the amendment to raise awareness on the face of the Bill, which two of the committees had asked for. 

So, the work to be undertaken through public information and advertising campaigns, with midwives and others who help parents, does need a period of preparation before the change in the law is introduced. Secondly, my interest in this Bill was to understand, as best possible, the practical implications of removing this legal defence. Prior to the introduction of the Bill, I'd heard many campaigners claim that it was important, perhaps symbolic, in order to secure full rights for children in Wales. But, up until this point, I'd not had the opportunity to probe in detail, with social work practitioners, with the police, the Crown Prosecution Service, et cetera, exactly what the practical application—implication, sorry—of the change in the law would be. So, I was, and I am, keen to be assured that, in removing this defence, we do not create a situation where hard-pressed social services, police forces and prosecutors face a much greater burden of activity. And, on this point, the evidence that we heard has reassured me sufficiently to continue supporting the Bill in that particular area. 

Thirdly, I want to stress the importance of recommendation 4—the importance of diversionary pathways that we've heard others talk about as well, when cases arise after the changes that would becomes law if this Bill becomes law. Welsh Government must ensure sufficient preparation is made so that diversionary schemes can focus on encouraging and supporting parents rather than penalising them. And I know that the Deputy Minister agrees that this is an important consideration, and she has confirmed that again today. 

And that leads me to my fourth and final point, which is summarised in recommendation 8 of this report. I believe that there will be extra costs that arise from this Bill in relation to the additional support that will be required for parents, and for statutory and third sector organisations looking to deliver that support. And while we can't, at this point, be explicit on those costs, it is important that Welsh Government commit to monitoring those costs and financing services that are identified as being crucial to the successful changes required.

The assurances given by the Deputy Minister on behalf of the Welsh Government are correct that some of the uncertainties on the costs will be overcome. But that will depend on us having a robust evaluation process, which I believe is covered in our committee's recommendations 13 and 16. Llywydd, this Stage 1 evaluation of this legislation has been extensive and informative, and it's right, in my view, that we progress with it.

In concluding, I'm of the view that we shouldn't be sidetracked by the use of sanitised terminology like 'smacking' or 'light tap', which kind of sounds okay, but really it's not okay. It's still hitting a child, and whatever reservations people may have—and I say this as a mother who struggled with disciplining my children when they were little at times—we must recognise that hitting a child cannot be right. Not only can it be damaging to the child, but it sends absolutely the wrong message to them in their formative years, that the use of physical punishment is an acceptable way to instill good behaviour. The legislation will introduce clarity that doesn't currently exist, and the law around children's rights will be better for that clarity. So, I hope this Assembly will accept the recommendations as set out in the committee's report.