The next item is a statement by the Minister for Housing and Local Government on the innovative housing programme, year 3. I call on the housing and local government Minister, Julie James.

Diolch, Llywydd. I'm very pleased to be able to brief Members on the third year of the innovative housing programme. We cannot ignore the scale of the housing challenges we are facing. We are not building enough homes, we are in the midst of a climate emergency we must act upon, our population is ageing, and the availability of traditional house building skills is in decline. The IHP programme identifies and tests solutions to these problems. It stimulates the design and delivery of new, high-quality, affordable homes through new housing models, new delivery pathways and new construction techniques.

Wales is at the vanguard of housing innovation, creativity and new thinking. How do I know this? Firstly, the programme is hugely oversubscribed. It is a record-breaking third year, with 52 applications for the programme from a mixture of both public and private sector organisations. I have received bids this year totalling in excess of £230 million.

Joyce Watson took the Chair.

Secondly, the quality of bids has been impressive. Selecting which schemes to recommend for funding has created a real headache for the independent panel. And finally, I've met many organisations across all of Wales since I launched this year's programme in February, all wanting to participate in the IHP programme. I've been struck by their flair, enthusiasm and sheer entrepreneurialism to try and work with us to figure out what type of homes we can and should be building. Indeed, the IHP community has grown this year to include over 300 businesses. Regular IHP events have been hosted across Wales to enable the learning from earlier years of the programme to be disseminated. These events have proved extremely popular, stimulating conversation and fresh ideas, as well as growing professional and organisational networks of like-minded people to come together to figure out what’s possible.

Collaboration is key. No single organisation can solve all of the issues we face on their own. So, growing the IHP community has been a priority this year, and I am really pleased to see the emerging collaborations. Examples include the joining together of organisational resources to eliminate fuel poverty, build near-zero-carbon homes, and test new approaches to building homes, which can then be retrofitted to existing ones. The sheer amount and quality of applications demonstrates that people know Wales is open for business, that this Government welcomes forward-thinking organisations interested in helping to address the housing challenges we face as a nation, and that the Welsh Government is keen to work with those in the market and affordable sectors to deliver the homes we need. I want to see homes built in Wales using these new methods, and I also want to see the new supply chains and jobs that come with these new methods created in Wales.

And of course, acting Presiding Officer, I should thank my predecessors, Rebecca Evans and Carl Sargeant. They had the courage to create the innovative housing programme in order to seek out new approaches to affordable house building in Wales. Funding innovation, by its very nature, carries risk. They had the vision to recognise that, whilst not every funded scheme would become the solution of the future, it was only through embracing and encouraging the sector to think creatively that we would find scalable new approaches.

In this third year, I wanted to push the programme further and set the bar even higher. I want more affordable homes more quickly. So, I challenged the sector to bring forward schemes that upscaled the tester schemes this Government invested in previously. I asked for schemes at scale, and the sector has delivered. The average size of the schemes funded will triple between year two and year three of the programme. I challenged the sector to give me near-zero-carbon homes, and again, they have responded magnificently with a swathe of schemes delivering at least EPC A levels of energy performance. Lastly, I challenged the sector to bring me beautifully designed homes, to help deliver great place making. Once again, they have fulfilled this challenge. This programme has some great designs, which I look forward to visiting once plans have been transformed into bricks and mortar, or, increasingly common, new materials and modes of construction that bring them to life.

The IHP programme has now invested in 55 schemes to build social housing and affordable homes. The schemes I announce today see a further £33 million of funding invested, meaning 600 new homes will get under way this year—much-needed new homes, for those who need them most. I am also delighted to see schemes submitted from 19 different local authority areas across Wales. This demonstrates that in most areas of Wales there is now a growing willingness and appetite for change in the sector.

I am always mindful that whilst building more homes is vital, what matters equally is how they are built. This is not just a numbers game. This programme is committed to supporting SMEs in Wales, the Welsh timber industry, local supply chains and local labour pools. Through this investment, we aim to build homes our future generations will truly thank us for. It is with this eye firmly on the future that IHP programme applications are framed around the well-being of future generations commitments. A full list of successful bidders will be published shortly, but I’ll just give you a flavour of those I will be supporting going forward.

Clwyd Alyn Housing Association will be funded to build 76 homes in Ruthin, north Wales. These could be the first in the UK to deliver net zero, whole-life carbon, with renewable energy offsetting the carbon impact of production and construction. Homes will have air source heat pumps, solar power and intelligent batteries, with heating and lighting costs estimated at less than £80 a year for tenants. I will fund two sites developed by Monmouthshire Housing Association in Chepstow to create 17 properties for people who are downsizing and first-time occupiers whose households might expand. The homes will have designed-in opportunities to add an additional bedroom to create life-long flexibility, so homes can grow and adapt to ageing and to changing populations. I am excited about Cartrefi Conwy’s scheme to deliver 32 zero-carbon homes over two sites using the Beattie Passive timber-frame, off-site construction approach. The scheme also demonstrates a normalising of the innovation supported previously, to a level that would not need the support of the innovative housing programme in a short space of time. I do not believe the tenure of a property should be obvious from the outside of a home, nor do I see any reason why communities should not be truly mixed. I am pleased to fund Cardiff council, together with Sero Homes, to build 214 low-carbon homes, a mix of council housing and homes to be sold on the open market in Rumney—all beautifully designed, of course.

As well as capital funding, I have made available a small amount of revenue funding. Yellow Sub Geo propose to develop a feasibility screening tool. This will identify and prioritise the potential for employing low-carbon energy and heat sources across the varied geography, weather, geology and hydrogeology in Wales. The approach will allow users to make better-informed decisions around the choice and use of low-carbon energy and heat options available in a given area. It will be a digital screening tool, accessed through a web user interface, open source and free to users. It will be hosted by a not-for-profit entity, meaning that its primary purpose is to engender social and environmental change.

Our challenge is to build genuinely mixed communities, with more homes that are truly affordable. And we need to act now if we are going to deal with the climate and demographic changes that are already upon us. This third year of IHP proves that solutions to many of these challenges are available right now. Furthermore, the overwhelmingly positive response to the programme from housing associations, local authorities and private small and medium-sized enterprises shows that I am not alone in being prepared to do things differently—not alone in being prepared to take more risks, and have the will and ambition to build more and build better. To this end, I have asked officials to revisit the applications for this year’s IHP, and work across ministerial portfolios, to see what support can be provided to applications that didn’t secure IHP funding this time, but can help this Government deliver on our housing priorities.

I intend that the homes built with IHP today will become the norm for homes receiving social housing grant, and other sources of Government funding, in the future. What may be regarded as novel approaches now will soon be considered mainstream. Be reassured: investing this £33 million today will help bring forward and mainstream the high-quality homes of tomorrow. Diolch.

From the start of this programme, three years ago, I have been keen to commend it; I think it's a good approach. I do think that we are moving to the time where we need some assessment of those projects that have been supported to date, particularly to see where the innovations have been normalised, or brought to market, or produced at scale. Because, as the Minister said, that is really the objective here. But I do particularly welcome from this statement the fact of the oversubscription of applications—I think that's a very healthy sign; the quality of the applications; going round and visiting various housing schemes and what's going on in the sector—I can well appreciate that; more schemes at scale; and the design quality. I'm always pleased when people use words like 'beautiful' of buildings, because I think that's what we've got to aspire to.

I have two, however, substantive points to make. I am concerned that we aren't modernising quickly enough in relation to modular building. Though 3D printing is still rare, modular certainly isn't in the rest—well, in some of the other parts of the UK, and indeed very much in the rest of the world, nor is it particularly novel. I read an article yesterday that Britain was exporting modular buildings to north America as early as 1624—they were probably going to Jamestown, which I know quite well. But this method, I think, has now once again shown itself to be of high quality, and really great in the speed of delivery, just in terms of house building by this method compared to traditional ones. In some countries, it's very standard now. In Sweden, 84 per cent of detached homes use manufactured timber elements; that compares to just 5 per cent in the UK. Yet these forms of construction are greener, cheaper, come with many fewer defects, and also lend themselves to the sort of beauty that the Minister was talking about, and what we often see in television programmes like Grand Designs. So, I think that's really, really important. And also, the energy bills, typically, can be cut in half by this form of technology, so it's fantastic.

Secondly, I'm keen to see how this programme now can merge into—or at least be used to improve skills and education in the building industry. One recent analysis found that more modern methods of construction would help increase site management and assembly skills, and create more jobs requiring digital skills, such as 3D visualisers and architectural technologists. Earlier this month, I read about the launch of the UK's first modular housing academy, in Yorkshire, which was created to train people to manufacture homes in factories, in a bid to halt the housing and construction skills crisis that we are seeing. And in particular, if we look at the age profile of people in the construction industry, it's too high. We appreciate the experience of the older workers, of course, but it must be made attractive to the millennial generation, and I think innovation and modular is often done in a nice roomy factory setting, so it's ideal in the winter time. It's just a win-win. I do genuinely think this is a good programme, and it just shows you what we can get out of Government when it gets something right. But, as ever, there's always a way of improving on work well begun, and I offer those suggestions. 

Thank you very much for that. We largely agree, really. On the modular point, I couldn't agree with you more. We encourage people always to think Huf Haus rather than prefab. Although, actually, the prefabs that people often decry are very sought after, particularly in my constituency. There are still people living in temporary prefab houses, which are lovely.

I've seen some really great small modular factories around Wales. We're supporting them in their efforts. I'm very keen that we make sure that this industry stays fit for Welsh purposes with Welsh supply chains and low-carbon supply and delivery models. So, therefore, we're very keen to have them dotted around Wales serving the communities that they're building the houses in and not centralised in a big factory. I'm also very keen that the modular build is, as far as possible, carbon neutral and with Welsh supply chains. So, I'm very delighted that in the innovative housing programmes we've been able to include an enormous number of projects that are built with Welsh timber, for example. So, it's totally a win-win situation.

We are in the process of mainstreaming some of this and, as I said in my statement, I'm really pleased to scale up some of the things we did earlier. I'm really, really keen that these are not pilots but testing grounds for mainstreaming. So, I was very keen to emphasise that once something's gone through the IHP and it's delivered what it set out to deliver, and we've monitored that and made sure it is, it becomes eligible for social housing grants and other Government support in order to push it into the main stream. So, I couldn't agree more. And in doing all of those things, we want to be looking to sometimes the public sector assisting the private sector to upskill. So, this public underpinning of this investment is also looking at the skills necessary.

Everything you said about building modular in a factory I completely concur with. You don't have to build at height, you don't have to build in risky weather conditions, it's only assembly on the site and so on. The other thing about it is that it is much faster, and so actually we have quite a crisis on our hands and it means we can upscale the number and the size of houses that we build. And then the last thing is to emphasise that, despite the fact that they're modular and assembled in a factory and all the rest of it, they meet all of the design standards that we regard as beautiful. And whilst beauty is a subjective point of view, there are some things that most human beings think a good house has, and we know what they are, and we're very keen to make sure that the programme also delivers those. I've very straightforwardly said we're encouraging builders across Wales, both in the public and in the private sector, to build homes that they themselves would be proud and happy to live in. 

It's good to see an increase in social housing being funded through this. I've just got a small number of questions to ask you. I wonder if the Minister could please outline how these schemes are interlinking with private sector developments, so that we can avoid creating ghettos. The statement hints at this, but it doesn't provide wider details, such as changes to planning law, for example. So, when can we have more detail on that? What lessons have been learned from the first two years of this scheme that can be applied to the future? And my only other question is: the final part of the statement implies that this will become the norm, so can the Minister please outline the road map for that? 

Certainly. Going backwards on that, in terms of a road map, what we're very keen to do is make sure that the analysis over the three years, as we go forward, is fed immediately back in to both the programme and to the main stream. So, as I said earlier, where we see that something has been built, it's being lived in, it's stood that test, so it's delivered what it set out to do—so, for example, it is in fact carbon neutral, it does in fact deliver lower energy bills for people, they enjoy living there, we're getting feedback from the tenants who go in—. Some of the technology is very innovative. So, tenants in social housing that go into these programmes have been asked to volunteer and have some training on how to use your air source heat pump and so on. It's not intuitive; you have to learn to use the technology and we're getting feedback about how they found that.

Where it’s been possible to get that information quickly, and it has been on some schemes, we've fed those in, and that’s what I was saying about encouraging people to come forward to upscale what we'd already done and make sure that it did work at higher scales. And there are some great sites around that people are delighted to show you around and show you how that works. So, we're very keen to get that test-and-feedback model, and then to feed it into our social housing grant model so that when they come forward with a scheme of that sort, we are very keen to fund it through the normal mainstream funding and not through the innovation stream funding. So, that’s the first thing.

In terms of the private sector, coming up to half of the bids—23 of the 52 bids that have been successful—are private sector. So, it’s pan-sector this. What we're looking to do is develop sites of mixed tenure, because we know that single-tenure sites of any sort—all owner-occupied or all social housing or any other 'all'—don't work. We want mixed tenure estates. So, what we're doing is we're encouraging public authorities, including the Welsh Government, to utilise their land in order to facilitate those kinds of developments. 'Planning Policy Wales' in its last iteration, which my colleague Lesley Griffiths was in charge of just before we changed jobs, and the new national development framework are underpinning that as well. And we're encouraging councils in negotiating with people bringing forward private land inside the local development plan to ensure that mixed tenure as well. So, you still have the conversation about how much affordable housing might be put in by a private developer, but we're encouraging the public sector to come forward and say, 'Is there another way to look at the funding envelope for this so that we can drive a different scale of mixed tenure?'

And then the last thing is, and I can't emphasise this enough—I said it clearly in my statement—that you should not be able to tell from the outside of the house what the tenure is. So, they all look the same, everybody lives together in a mixed community, in a place and not an estate. And that cannot be emphasised enough. That’s why the NDF is important as well, because that requires the infrastructure to have been planned out in advance, so that we know where the schools and the GPs are, we know where the work is, we know where the public transport routes are, and we know that there are cycle paths and walks to school and all that sort of stuff. So, we're developing exemplar sites around Wales. I went to visit one in Newport just last week, and then we're taking other people there and saying, 'Look, this is what you can do with these kinds of funding streams', just to mainstream it.  

Can I very much welcome the Minister’s statement? The Minister has identified the four key challenges: not building enough houses to meet the need; the climate change emergency; an aging population; and not enough qualified building trades people. I think it’s unfortunate that we're in a part of the world today where this, which should be the key issue that we're talking about, will, almost certainly, I think, be overshadowed by other events, when this is what really does affect the lives of people and the people that I represent.

Can I say that quality is most important, and it’s important to learn the lessons of history? The Minister, like me, remembers the steel houses, the high alumina cement, the other non-traditional builds that didn't last 25 years. So, I think it is important that the quality is there so that the houses do last.

We know that the private sector will not meet housing demand. If they did, it would affect both house prices and the profits of the company, so they like to keep demand up and only meet part of it in order to maximise their profits. That’s not a criticism of them, but that is the business model that private sector building in this country uses.

We need more social housing. Does the Minister agree with me that the only way to meet demand is for councils to build more houses using local trades people at the scale of the 1950s and 1960s, which is the only time since the second world war and one of only two occasions in the whole history of this country when houses were built at the scale necessary to meet demand?

And I would also like to ask about co-operative housing. I think that there is a role for co-operative housing. We are very poor at it in this country, not just in Wales, but right across the United Kingdom, and it’s something that in many other parts of the world is the norm—parts of the world that vary from the United States of America and Canada to Sweden. So, it’s not the political will. And for anybody who watches any American tv programmes, when they talk about going to the co-op, they mean co-operative housing. And it’s unfortunate that we don't seem to have got that mentality across in this country, so what further can be done to increase the amount of co-operative housing available in Britain?

I completely concur with Mike Hedges's analysis of this. We absolutely do need to get councils to build again at scale and pace. We've been very clear about that. We've been working really hard with the councils across Wales to change the rules, now that the cap has been lifted on the housing revenue accounts, both with stockholding and non-stockholding authorities, to make sure that they all utilise their borrowing sufficiently to get the pace and scale that he talks of.

I grew up in one of the steel houses, as he knows. My grandmother could not believe that she had been allowed to live in a house with a fitted kitchen and a nice, big bathroom in a spacious place with cupboards to put things in and so on. And whilst the cladding didn't stand the test of time, the houses are still there, they've just been re-clad with more modern materials. We need to be able to duplicate that. But, we also need to have the kinds of mixed housing opportunities that actually existed then. We built enough social housing and people who wanted a social house could have one, and so the estate that I grew up on had people from every walk of life living together in it as a proper community. That's what we aspire to put back. We know that we can help them put back that aspiration by having mixed tenure.

I could not agree with him more about co-operative housing and mutuals. There are a number of models available and we are looking very hard at how we can support those to be developed using the various grants and loans that we have available. I don't think it's too much to admit, acting Presiding Officer, that I've had to have a lesson in financial transaction capital and its uses from the director of the Welsh Treasury, with Rebecca's help, in order to understand all of the various funding mechanisms that we can do in order to produce the kinds of co-operative models that he's talking about. So, I completely agree with that.

The last thing I want to say is, I know he wasn't able to attend, but I did attend last Friday a new development that Swansea council is doing in his constituency—he and I visited when the ground was first broken—and it's quite amazing. It has two Olympic-sized swimming pools buried in the ground to take storm run-off, so that we address the pollution of overwhelmed drains. It has vertically drilled ground source heat pumps. It's just an amazing site—absolutely amazing—and we know that people will be very happy living there, and that's one of the other big things. So, I completely agree with all of the points that he made. 

Thank you for your statement, Minister. The need to address Wales's desperate need for housing, particularly affordable housing, whilst at the same time tackling climate change, is crucial, which is why schemes such as the innovative housing programme are so important, because a lack of affordable housing impacts upon so many lives and our communities. So, I welcome this latest update on the IHP scheme.

The fact that so many low to zero-carbon homes are being built is great news. Our ability to mitigate climate change relies upon reducing the energy required to build and run a home. So, schemes such as the one in Ruthin not only help us address our climate emergency, but also help to reduce fuel poverty.

However, whilst all these schemes are welcome, they are a drop in the ocean compared with the challenges that we face. We need tens of thousands of new affordable homes. These schemes all seem to address the energy needs, but not really the scale of the housing that is needed. But, I acknowledge that we have to start somewhere. So, Minister, Cardiff University demonstrated energy positive housing with the Solcer house four or five years ago. How many of the schemes coming through the IHP scheme are building upon the findings of the Solcer house?

Modular housing has the potential to quickly address housing shortages, and with the use of innovative materials made from recycled products, they even have the potential to remove carbon from our atmosphere and use zero carbon over their occupation. Minister, does the IHP give any weight to modular housing schemes? And if not, would you consider investing in modular housing projects in future years? Modular housing is fast to install and could be key to addressing our housing crisis.

Finally, Minister, if we are to address homelessness, we have to build housing for the homeless. Have any schemes come forward that address the particular needs of our ex-service personnel, who are a large percentage of those who end up rough-sleeping? Thank you very much.

Well, just dealing with a few of those things there, building on previous learning is absolutely built into it. And so understanding what has been built in the past, how that worked, why it worked and whether it's scalable is a really big thing, but whether it's scalable is one of the big things as well. So it's all very well to build one house, but whether you can build 400 of them simultaneously is a big issue for the programme. And as I said in the statement, we're just in the process of scaling up some of the things that we do know worked. 

The recycling issue is a huge issue as well. Most of these houses are modular, actually. Almost all of the schemes use Welsh timber in one way or another, and we're very keen on short supply chains so that we reduce the carbon footprint of the entire build, as I said in the statement. We're also very keen to make sure that any construction waste is kept to a minimum and is reused or recycled as appropriate, and that we're not causing inadvertent problems as a result of this. And then, once we understand that, we can scale it up again to make sure that that happens. 

The whole issue with skills, which I discussed with David Melding, is about skills transfer, so that we skill up the people of the future. And some of the schemes are using the people who will eventually be their tenants in order to build them. So, actually, effectively building their own homes. In particular, there's a great scheme on Anglesey, actually, that I was really pleased to see which is utilising that. They're really exciting, but you're absolutely right about the scale. We need to build around 4,000 houses a year in order to address the issue of people in temporary accommodation.

The issue around homelessness isn't about just the sharp end at rough-sleeping, it's about the people sliding into homelessness as well. So that's why we need to build 4,000 social homes a year, in order to prevent that cycle. So it's a big ask, but this year we've built very nearly 1,000 and last year we only had a few hundred. So we're ramping it up very quickly. We're going as fast as it's possible to go, making sure that we're building the right thing for the right people. And although you can call any particular group of people a group, each of them will be individual, each of them will have different requirements. We need to build the variety of housing and mixed tenures that address all of those needs. 

Can I also welcome your statement, Minister? As you will probably be aware, last week, I welcomed the First Minister to the constituency and we visited one of those forward-thinking organisations that you referred to in your statement, Merthyr Valleys Homes. They were the first tenant and employee mutual in Wales and, as you know, one of the largest in the UK. It's a great example of social enterprise delivering significant benefits to the community, including, of course, the development of the Taf Fechan co-operative housing unit in Gellideg. 

Merthyr Valleys Homes explained to us the potential of modular methods of construction—and we've heard much about that this afternoon—both in renewing their stock and in providing new units to help housing needs. And they've already used the modular homes that we've talked about to provide low-cost affordable housing solutions. And I think, next week, you're coming up to meet them to look at their modular container homes, and I shall look forward to that. Incidentally, I think it's also worth saying at this point that they're taking on apprentices as well. So they're also developing local skills in the area.

So, Minister, I'm working on the assumption that you'll be looking at the experience and the innovation of organisations like Merthyr Valleys Homes and the type of innovative work that they've been involved in, and supporting that specific need across our Valleys communities will be part of your housing strategy and will sit within the housing strategy for the Valleys taskforce as well, so that we don't see this sitting separately from the work that the Valleys taskforce is doing. And in particular that it would look to help address the most difficult but common housing need, which is that of single units of housing. Both the housing associations in my constituency tell me that that in itself is the biggest challenge that they have in meeting housing need. So the question, really, is just about how all of that will fit together and deliver those particular objectives.

Yes, she's absolutely right, Merthyr Valleys Homes have done some sterling work in a range of innovative ways and it just demonstrates that the innovative housing programme is not the only innovation that we're looking at, because they've done a lot of that with mainstream social housing grant and so on. So lots of things are possible. Dawn Bowden's absolutely right, what we're looking to have is a strategy overall that sucks in the innovation and spreads it out as fast as we can go. So, a lot of the skills transfer that you talked about there, getting people to take an interest in the houses that they're building, because they might be living in them themselves—the tenant voice in all of that is really important. They've done some really interesting work around mutuals and co-operatives and so on, which I'm really interested in exploring further with them. But it's just a demonstration that the IHP programme is just one part of the innovative nature of the way that we're approaching our housing strategy, because we need to build every sort of home for every sort of tenure, at pace and scale, if we're to address the needs that we know our population has.

I was delighted in my statement to announce one of the innovative housing programmes, which is around a modular house building programme that allows you to add a bedroom, because we do have a big need for one-bedroomed homes—that's absolutely right, and we need to build those at pace and scale—but people's circumstances change. They may not stay single forever, they may need care, they may need family or friends to visit and so on, so a one-bedroomed house for a single person is not necessarily what people are looking for.

So, trying to build the houses that allow people to have the lifestyle that they want, to have a friend to stay, to have a carer, grandchild or putative future partner move in—we want people to be able to have a lifetime home. These kinds of modular houses that allow you to add a bedroom or a different module on it are excellent, and we need to look to them for the future.

And finally, Nick Ramsay.

Diolch, Chair. Minister, you've just mentioned the scheme that involves being able to add a bedroom. I think that that's the scheme in Chepstow, from my memory of your statement. I was delighted to see that that's been included—Monmouthshire Housing Association, I believe, will be receiving funding to build 17 homes in Chepstow.

The ability to add a bedroom, or other examples of Monmouthshire housing where the houses are futureproofed so that you can add lifts as well so that people can stay in the homes as they get older—I think that's a really important aspect of modern home delivery of the type that Monmouthshire housing is getting quite a reputation for. So, I wonder what you're doing to make sure that that kind of practice is embedded in the strategies of housing associations across Wales, so that we do see this futureproofing, because I think, over time, it makes schemes a lot more efficient if people can stay in those homes that they love—if they can have an extra bedroom, can have a lift, can have adaptations. I think that's the way to go, so I'd like to see that rolled out across all housing schemes across Wales, if possible.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons it's in the programme is because we want to test out the concept and make sure that it works, but, actually, I visited a similar scheme with Huw Irranca-Davies in his constituency recently, where we were shown a modular home that you could add another bedroom to, or, indeed, actually pick the whole thing up and put it down somewhere else, if you needed to do that. I spent a fair amount of my childhood in Canada, where it's quite common to see a house going along the road, being moved from one place to the other, because they're all modular. So, we really need to learn from existing techniques for that, but, actually, really modern things as well, around energy efficiency and so on. I can't vouch for the home in Canada, 60 years ago, when I was a child, being the energy efficient thing that we want today, although, you know, Canada's not renowned for its temperate weather, so they clearly stood the test of that. But there are lots of things that we can do here, and this is about making sure that we have what's called a home for life, so that as your circumstances change throughout your life, you're able to stay in the home that you love and in the community that you're part of, and we need to facilitate that where at all possible.

Thank you.