Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 6:00 pm on 24 September 2019.
It's lovely to have this statement and see the progress of this going so well and also to see that the Welsh Government is indeed listening and is modifying the offer as it goes forward. That's signs of a good Government, I have to say. But I don't know if she'd agree with me that the description from Siân Gwenllian a moment ago of 'an utter Horlicks' would be disputed by the parents of the 16,000 children who currently do it, but also the providers, I have to say, who have seen the tangible benefits of this for the children in terms of early years education, in terms of socialisation and development of social skills. But it was always a limited offer, limited to the manifesto description of it.
So, I'm pleased that the Welsh Government now is actually considering looking at extending it, but I do have a question on that. There are existing schemes out there in terms of support for training and education for parents. One thing we've got to avoid is a wasteful use of resources, so if we are looking at extending the offer to that, can we just make sure that there is a seamless edge; that we're not actually duplicating what is currently on offer out there? It'll be great if the finance Minister can find additional money to do this, because there was always an ambition on the CYPE committee, when I appeared in front of it, to do more. So, beyond that, I'd like to ask the Minister how the discussions are going within Government about a wider offer that is beyond the childcare offer. Now, I'm not expecting her to come out today with a blueprint for the way forward, but we all know that, actually, the ideal way forward is an early years and childcare offer that is universal, comprehensive and actually starts at an age-appropriate amount of hours and an age-appropriate learning at one year of age, two years of age, and so on. It goes way beyond this—so, not simply to parents in education or training, but way, way beyond it.
Now, I know that when I left the post, officials were working very hard and Cabinet had signed off on a paper that was going to take some of this work forward, so it'd be interesting to know whether that is still progressing even if we can't be given a complete road map today, because, ultimately, that is the way forward.
In terms of HMRC, if local authorities have changed their views on this, I think it's fantastic, and we always identified three possible options: the made-in-Wales, a HMRC version and a new agency—highly expensive. The HMRC approach, bespoke, has the advantages of modelling alongside the UK model, but the disadvantages of modelling alongside the England model, as well. So, if the costs have run away with that, it's absolutely understandable to come back to local authorities, particularly if they've changed their mind. But, could I ask will there be any revision done of the cost to local authorities? Because one of the original concerns was the cost and bureaucracy, and with that bureaucracy comes cost. Now, I suspect the Minister will answer that the lessons that we've learnt from some of those local authorities that are now providing the organisation and administration for other local authorities is to be more cost-effective and they've learnt how to do it quite easily. I think it's the situation, actually, in Powys, where it's provided by a different local authority to do it throughout the area. Is that the case and will we have revised costings?
And the final thing I'd just like to ask, because it wasn't in the statement, is how this is going in terms of Welsh language provision? I know there's been good discussion in my own area about making sure that the Welsh language provision is mapped well and that we extend it. Sorry, I said it was the final question. The final question is: Bridgend County Borough Council—traditionally, over-providing early years, foundation phase to the tune of 25 hours or even 30 hours per child, far more generous than other local authorities. I know that her officials have been discussing with BCBC how we can avoid rolling this out and actually disrupting what was very good and already in place. How has that gone? Are those discussions still going on with her officials and BCBC?