Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:31 pm on 25 September 2019.
Diolch yn fawr. Well, it's been an interesting debate with mixed views. There were, of course, mixed views on the committee, reflected in the report, but the majority support the recommendations of the committee and the report itself. I do believe that there are a number of practical issues that have to be addressed, as has been outlined by Members, but those are addressed by the report and the recommendations.
We did, of course, hear from prison staff that although there was recognition of those difficulties—some of the bureaucracy and system problems that might be involved—they were by no means insurmountable. Indeed, the prison governor and the staff were very supportive of the direction of travel that the report recommends, and we were very grateful for that degree of understanding.
Yes, there will have to be, as we recommend, a memorandum of understanding, which the Welsh Government and the Electoral Commission can pursue with the UK Government and the prison service. That will address issues around making sure prisoners are registered to vote, if they're eligible; that they're supported to take part; that there is access to meet with prisoners for political parties and campaigning purposes; and that there is an election co-ordinator in each prison with Welsh prisoners. All of those matters are very practical issues, Dirprwy Lywydd, and we recognise them and address them in our report in an equally practical way. They are not insurmountable, and, as I say, that was very much accepted by those who will be tasked with conducting the arrangements inside the prison.
There will have to be information provided to prisoners and an addressing of the lack of access to Welsh media in terms of prisons in England, which we heard very effectively from prisoners in Eastwood Park. So, yes, there are quite a lot of practical issues, but none of them insurmountable. Indeed, I think there was a clear sense of the necessary will within prisons and necessary partners to make sure that those difficulties are surmounted.
It has been very interesting and worthwhile work, and I think the committee did enjoy the work, knowing that it's something of practical import—it's something that we were asked to do. It's something that recognises the responsibilities of this institution in terms of the European convention on human rights, that there was a clear requirement for these matters to be addressed from that very important international body, and indeed, of course, that ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that a blanket ban is not defensible in terms of their requirements and our responsibilities. That has been recognised by the UK Government with the limited changes they've made, which I referred to earlier, and we also have to come to a view here as to how we deal with those requirements. I'm very pleased that the report has been able, I think, to do that effectively—that has been accepted by Welsh Government. I appreciate what the Llywydd said in terms of the work of the committee and the responsibility that we accepted, that we have undertaken and, I hope, properly discharged.
A lot of what we heard in terms of the debate, of course, Dirprwy Lywydd, wasn't about the more practical issues, but really address the wider matters of principle. I think that's absolutely fine; there are broad issues of principle. We recognise that in the report. I'd agree with some of the Members that spoke, such as Leanne Wood, Jenny Rathbone and Alun Davies, and I thank Alun Davies for the work that he did as Minister in taking these matters forward, and putting us in a position where we can make the progress that I hope we will make in due course.
I very much understand the description that those Members gave of the criminal justice system that we have. I think it is broken; I don't think there's any doubt about that. It's grossly overcrowded, which makes it very, very difficult to take forward proper training, proper rehabilitation. That really does matter, doesn't it? And it was recognised, indeed, by Rory Stewart, one of the recent Ministers at a UK level with responsibility. He actually, I think quite dramatically and very impressively, said that if he couldn't turn it around as a system within a defined period of time, then he would step down from that position. It was quite a dramatic way of addressing his responsibilities. Other matters intervened, as we all know, in a fairly dramatic way as well, but I think that was an impressive way of a Minister recognising responsibilities, recognising the current state of the criminal justice system and prison system, and wanting to do something effective about it.
So, there are grave problems, and what they actually do is result in more crime and more victims of crime, because if people aren't properly rehabilitated when they are released, as nearly all prisoners are, then obviously they are more likely to re-offend and damage our communities, themselves and their families further.