Concessionary travel brings significant benefits to individuals, their communities, local economies and the environment. Any proposal to increase the age for receiving a bus pass is likely to increase the risk of loneliness and isolation; increase costs on health and care services; hit the incomes of thousands of older people; and undermine the response to the climate emergency. As everybody knows, I live in Swansea. The number of my constituents who have got free bus passes who, in the summer, travel down to Mumbles because they've got a free buss pass and who wouldn't do it if they had to pay is substantial.

I know that the Minister and I have different people that we talk to and the different lifestyles that we live because I had a bus pass in July and I have used public transport more since then than I did in the previous three years. I think that that's what I find from the people I know: once they get their bus pass, they start using buses. It's because, basically, it doesn't cost you anything and you have to pay to park. That really is the position of many people, and we've got people who drive down to the bus stop to catch the free bus.

We know that bus companies are under pressure. Many communities that I represent are not well served by buses now, and this change would only create more communities without buses. I mean, you take demand out, don't you? When people come to use a bus pass, it puts demand into the system. You take those bus passes away, and demand, in my opinion, will decrease.

Reducing it to £1 or reducing it to whatever level you are talking about—. Can I say: reducing it to £1 would mean that the 53 percent who are paying for buses in Swansea would actually have their costs reduced by three-quarters, which is a huge reduction, but I'm not convinced that it will increase patronage. There's only one way to find out. Why didn't we have a test of this? Why didn't we have an area where you reduced the bus charges down to £1 for everybody in one council area? You could have done it in Merthyr, for example. [Interruption.] Pardon?