Mike Hedges, you're sounding very, very suspicious and cynical about Transport for Wales's protection of data, but it is for that very reason. It is also because the manufacturing process that's involved in the new cards is such that we have to ensure that the cards can be used anywhere in the UK, in the event that such an equitable system of applying the concessionary fare scheme is introduced, so that we could use it on a cross-border basis.

Can I first of all say that I did enjoy helping Mike to apply for his concessionary bus pass last week? It gave me a personal experience of how simple a process it is. That's why I am confident, in many respects, that all people who wish to secure the replacement bus pass will be able to do so in good time.

My question would be this: when you say that you have used buses more now than ever before because they are free, are you saying that you would not use buses in the future if you had to pay for them, recognising that we in this Chamber are all paid a pretty good salary? Or is it the case, now that you've experienced how good bus services are, that you would wish to retain that sort of service? My view is it's the latter. Once you start using a bus service, if it's good, if it gets you from A to B on time, if you're not stuck in traffic, if you can guarantee it's going to turn up on time, you will use it. You'll use it, and you particularly will use it if you lower the fares by as much as three quarters, as could happen under the vision that I've just outlined.

And insofar as testing this sort of approach goes, well, the ArrivaClick system in south Liverpool has a fare structure that is incredibly affordable and that's shown that over 50 per cent of users of that new innovative service are people who haven't used buses in the past, but, equally, that service is reliable and operates on the basis of offering shorter journey times than private vehicles. So, you have to take all of these factors and put them in the mix in order to drive modal shift.