2. Will the Minister confirm the financial savings which have been forgone as a result of the Welsh Government's decision to abandon proposals to reduce the number of councils in Wales? OAQ54494

There is no evidence that large councils are more effective or efficient than small councils. Our local government Bill will empower councils, reform and strengthen local democracy, create conditions for improved delivery of local services, and provide a robust framework for authorities to work on a regional basis where there are advantages in them doing so.

The Minister's response seems significantly different from those I recall from her predecessors on similar subjects, but their speeches about suggestions that bigger is better in general are not ones that have led to councils, or councillors at least, wanting to merge. I just wonder, is Welsh Government not able to offer an estimate or some analysis or something to assist in what are the fixed costs of running a council, given that we have a number of really very small councils with significantly high council taxes?

That's just not how it works. What we believe in is that democracy should be as close to the people as humanly possible, for the decisions to be made as close to the people as is possible. I'm very surprised, given your background, Mark Reckless, that you don't concur with me that that kind of subsidiarity is what we should be looking for in local democracy. So, what we say is that one size certainly does not fit all; it doesn't fit all in any arrangement across Wales. Local authorities work hard to deliver services across a range of different mechanisms and different sizes, and, as I say, there is no evidence at all from anywhere that says that one size of a local authority is always more effective and more efficient than any other size. What we are doing is working very closely with the WLGA and local government leaders, through the local government sub-group of the partnership council, to develop a mechanism to support regional working and collaboration where that's appropriate, to reduce complexity for the authorities delivering different kinds of regional working arrangements, and to ensure that the decisions are made as close to the local people as is possible for effective and efficient democracy.

If you believe that larger organisations in Wales, such as Betsi Cadwaladr, Natural Resources Wales and the Welsh Ambulance Services NHS Trust are the types of organisations that we think work best, then wholesale merger has its attractions.

Will the Minister confirm that the costs of reorganising ICT systems, employment and grading terms being equalised, staff movement, changing signs—and I could go on, but I feel like the Deputy Presiding Officer wouldn't let me—would be more expensive than any predicted never mind actual savings, and that in the last reorganisation, where there were mergers in places like Swansea, the costs of merger equated to approximately 5 per cent of the revenue budget?

Well, it's a national sport, really, in local government to argue about the costs or savings associated with any reorganisation. What is clear is that if you do a mass reorganisation, those authorities become inward looking as people look to see that their jobs and services are protected. We do not need inward-looking services. We need outward-looking, collaborative, efficient services. So, we agree with the WLGA that working collaboratively together in the way I outlined is the most effective. And as I already said, and Mike Hedges knows from our long association, I don't agree that bigger is always better.

Given that the local government reorganisation in Wales has been firmly kicked into the long grass, Minister, can you advise what action you're taking to encourage and accelerate collaboration between existing local authorities in service provision and back-office function to generate financial savings, please?

Yes. So, the forthcoming Bill has a range of arrangements in it for collaborative joint working. It will have a device called a corporate joint committee that will allow a legal entity to be formed between local authorities who wish to work regionally together. There will be four mandatory areas on the face of the Bill as it's introduced, Deputy Presiding Officer, although, obviously, we are in the Senedd's hands then as to where the Bill goes after that through its committee processes and so on.

Local authorities already deliver a range of important services in collaboration and one size does not fit all. So, there's a regulatory collaboration in the south-west of Wales, for example, that doesn't exist elsewhere. There are other arrangements, numerous and varied. The WLGA has been working really hard, assisted by Derek Vaughan who was previously an MEP for Wales, to come to a really good piece of work as an analysis of how that works, and we will be going forward with them in partnership in helping them make those arrangements.

What I would say is that the Bill also includes a whole series of powers for local authorities to voluntarily merge, for example, should they wish to, and to change their voting system and arrangements. But, they are voluntary. So, if two local authorities come together and think that they would be more effective and efficient working together, there is a mechanism by which they could do that, but we are not forcing them down that road because that is not the direction of travel that we think is most effective.