Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:12 pm on 15 October 2019.
First Minister, can I very much welcome the paper and also the extent to which the paper also draws on, I think, considerable amounts of work and debate that's gone on within the various committees and this Chamber, and also the various constitution committees across the various UK Parliaments? You'll be aware of the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee report, 'UK governance post-Brexit', where one of its key recommendations then was to advocate fundamental reform of the JMC and to recognise the need for collaboration not just between Governments but, importantly, collaboration between Parliaments as well. And, yesterday, we had a round-table, an open and public round-table, of some of the UK's leading constitutional experts to actually talk about many of these key issues that are before us.
One of the fundamental issues that emerges from the paper—and has been common, I think, in all the debates—is that, if there is to be any significant constitutional reform taking place, then sovereignty is at the core of it, and placing limitations on sovereignty and on the ability of Westminster to override or disregard the exercise of responsibilities devolved by Parliament. So, there must be a radical reform of the way in which parliamentary sovereignty can be exercised and, without that, it is difficult to see that there can be any substantive constitutional change.
One issue that is obviously of some concern is that we need to be careful that what we are not talking about are engagements between Parliaments, but we recognise that the issue of the constitution, as you have just said, is in the ownership of the people of Wales, and also the people of the UK as a whole, in terms of the nature of what reform may or may not take place. Now, the role of the committees and this Chamber is very important. I'd be grateful if you could make some comments as to how you see the nature of these debates and engagements developing to ensure that there is full participation of this Assembly within those processes as they develop.
And then, fundamentally, the key thing is we have made these points time and time again, often with very little response at UK level, and the question is: how do we make change happen? There was a very famous philosopher, an economist, who said philosophers have hitherto only interpreted the world in various ways, but the point, however, is to change it.
The Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee has proposed a Speaker's conference, as happened, in fact, in 1920. So, not a new idea, but a means of starting and commencing a constitutional debate, perhaps outside the toxic atmosphere that exists within UK politics. And one of the obstacles to this has, of course, been that the current Speaker of the UK Parliament is regarded by some as a controversial figure, and movement in this direction has not been capable of taking place. But we are shortly to have a new Speaker in Westminster and the imminent appointment of the new Speaker may provide an opportunity for this to happen. So, I wonder what steps the Welsh Government will take to promote action and kick-start this necessary debate. Will you take seriously and consider the opportunity of, perhaps, representations being made so that the initiation of a Speaker's conference, as recommended by the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, might be one means of actually starting this process?