Part of the debate – in the Senedd at 4:33 pm on 15 October 2019.
Diolch, Llywydd. And could I, in welcoming the statement and also the tone of the contributions here today, say—this is a concise statement, it's not the longest we've seen in this place—how profound and far-reaching it is to have a First Minister of Wales stand up and say, with some clarity, some detailed proposals, but also to frame the debate around constitutional reform with such clarity as well? And as somebody who has come here as a former Member of Parliament, as I sat here listening to the First Minister and the contributions, I was trying to imagine the day in which a Prime Minister would stand on their feet in the other chamber in Westminster and say, 'We need a constitutional convention; we need to engage with the devolved nations and regions of the United Kingdom; we need to fashion a future, which, as framed within this short but profound statement today, delivers a strong Wales within a strong United Kingdom, but recognises as well that this is a voluntary association of nations that co-operate together to advance our common interests.' That is, I would suggest, a radical reframing of this dialogue, a very timely one, and I would welcome the opportunity—and I hear the words from Paul, the leader of the Conservatives, a moment ago on his support for a convention, a citizens' convention. If we, Paul, could argue collectively here across the parties with our colleagues in Westminster to actually deliver that, whoever is sitting in the Prime Minister's seat in a few weeks' or months' time, then we would have progress indeed.
But there are some significant telling propositions within here, issues around a different way of imagining sovereignty within these nations and regions of the United Kingdom; a reformed upper House of the UK Parliament, the Westminster Parliament, that was indeed properly representative of those nations and regions; embedding deeply the principal of subsidiarity and knowing what that means; and, in effect, the potential of a citizens' convention to look at this quite differently and to say, 'Here is a compact, an agreement from the nations and regions, to say these are the powers, this is the authority we invest in the centre of the United Kingdom, and this is what we should be getting here.' And there is a parity of esteem, and a parity between the Executive function and the scrutiny function within those institutions. This is a question of growing up within the United Kingdom.
I only have one question, and it's been phrased already in a different way, but there is definitely a benefit to giving this clarity in order to start the debate, and there are others who are also starting this debate. There is work going on with King's College in London, and former colleagues of mine who are involved in this. A very slight criticism would be it's slightly Westminster-centric, as you might imagine, in the membership of that and the focus and the terms of reference. But my question to the First Minister would be this: if we can engage on this and we can start the debate, how do we actually then move it forward so that we have traction within Whitehall, within Scotland, within Andy Burnham in Manchester, within Sadiq Khan in London, and those institutions as well? Is there something that we can do collaboratively to work with others who are out there in different parts of England, let alone Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, to drive this agenda forward? Because what we have to plan—. I agree with him in saying—this will happen whether it is planned or not. Something will change because it is starting to fracture and break. So, how do we actually get ahead of the game here? What can we do to actually bring others to support us in establishing this convention? I won't say yet the magic master plan for doing it, but surely part of this is actually establishing that convention, and we might have allies around England as well as other parts of the UK who would support us in doing that.