2. What representations has the Welsh Government made following the imprisonment of Catalonia’s elected political leaders? 352

The lead for all matters relating to foreign affairs sits with the UK Government. But I have already written to the Foreign Secretary, to ask what representations the UK Government has made to the Spanish Government about the prison sentences handed down to Catalan politicians.

Presiding Officer, I think all of us were shocked by the news this week of the imprisonment of Catalonia's political leaders. And since then, we've been shocked by the images of state violence that we see coming from Catalonia. Many of us have felt that our democracy is secure, our rights as European citizens secure and guaranteed. But we all know that, in recent years, we have seen with a terrifying clarity that these freedoms and rights that we've taken for granted are not safeguarded, and that perhaps we need to fight once again, as others have done so in the past, to secure democracy and liberty on our continent. Recent events in Catalonia have left many of us feeling frightened for the people of that country. This, Presiding Officer, simply should not be happening in Europe. It should not be allowed to happen in the European Union, and we, the peoples of Europe, must stand in solidarity with the imprisoned political leaders of Catalonia and the people of Catalonia.

The right of self-determination is a fundamental human right, incorporated into article 1 of the Charter of the United Nations. It is one of the guiding principles upon which international law, and the international order, is based. It is a right that we in Wales have exercised twice in recent years, and which the people of Scotland are debating today. Wherever one may stand on the answer to the question of independence, the right to take such a decision must be beyond question. The Government of Spain has broken this fundamental principle, and there must be consequences for its actions. Presiding Officer, the brutality of the Spanish state I believe is not compatible with its place at the European top table. The combined actions of the Spanish state, including its army, police and justice system, stand to be condemned by all those who value liberty and democracy.

I believe it is clear that crimes are being committed by the Spanish state against the Catalonian people. And it is this place, and our Government, which cannot stand by whilst allowing such crimes to be committed in our European home. I recognise that the lead for foreign affairs is with the United Kingdom Government, but I do not believe that any of us sitting here, or the people we represent, would want us to stand by and allow these things to happen on our doorstep. I believe that the Welsh Government must be saying this clearly, and using all the means at its disposal, to stand up for basic human rights in Catalonia, and our European home. I hope, Minister, that you will take these matters further with the UK Government, but also directly with the Spanish Government. It is not good enough to see Spanish police beating the people of Catalonia, and imprisoning elected leaders, because of the views they hold, and because they tried to carry out a political mandate and exercise their fundamental human right to self-determination.

Well, I've noted the passion with which the Member's expressed his concern for the people of Catalonia. But I think it is worth emphasising that politicians in a democracy have a particular responsibility to work within the law, and the courts have a responsibility to enforce that law. But as the First Minister emphasised yesterday, there should be no place in a democracy for the sort of law that results in politicians being imprisoned for expressing their constitutional views. So, that has been very clearly expressed, and I think that would chime with many people's feelings within this Assembly.

Whatever our views as individuals about independence for Wales, whatever our stance on the principle of smaller nations on these isles, or across Europe, insisting on their right to liberty, and to take responsibility for their own futures, the actions of the Spanish state this week, in imprisoning nine democrats for a total of 100 years for the crime of insisting on a voice for their people, should shock and appall us all.

I was in the Catalan Parliament some two months ago; I am grateful for the welcome that I and my family received there. I stood in the Chamber, where the political leaders insisted that they put their faith in the people that they represent. I stood under pictures of the speakers of that Parliament over the years—politicians who have insisted that Catalonia should be a nation and that it should have its own Parliament to safeguard its interests and give voice to its aspirations. Among them was Carme Forcadell, who is today in prison, guilty of the crime of allowing a debate in that Parliament.

That day too I was wearing this particular badge—a symbol that is to be seen in all parts of Catalonia: on houses, on cars, in windows, on the roads and pavements, and in the hearts of millions of Catalans. The symbol of unity and support for those people—people like you and me—who are imprisoned in the name of democracy. I know full well that there is a difference of view in Catalonia on the future of the country and on its relationship with the Spanish state, but that state, of course, is denying a voice to those people to decide on their own fate.

No matter on what side of the debate we might be on the principle of the quest of smaller nations, like ours, to set their own direction as free nations, we cannot just accept what we have seen happening in Spain. We cannot ignore these actions by a so-called modern European state, holding political prisoners—elected representatives; a Parliament's Presiding Officer in jail. These shameful actions have already sparked protests the length and breadth of Catalonia, and they should spark outrage among all democrats.

I'm calling for a firm and unambiguous statement from Welsh Government. Minister, will you echo my call and that of my party that all of us, as parliamentarians, should condemn these incarcerations, that we call as an international community at all levels—here in Wales, on a UK level and the European level—that our colleagues are given back their freedom and that we demand respect for the fundamental human right, the right to self-determination?

Thank you very much. There's a long and close history between Wales and Catalonia and we're very eager for this situation to continue. We share a number of political priorities, through our networks that we share with Catalonia. When I was preparing the Standing Orders for this new Parliament, many years ago, one of the things that I did as a member of the National Assembly advisory group was to have a long conversation with the speaker of the Catalonian Parliament to learn from them how they were organising their Parliament. So, that relationship does go back a long way. I do think that it’s very important for us to emphasise the fact that we do see this as a political problem and not, perhaps, as a problem that should be dealt with in the courts.

Would the Minister agree with me that the events in Catalonia this week are an example of state terrorism? It's absolutely incredible that a modern European state could behave in the way that it has and sentence politicians to draconian terms of 10 or 12 years merely for holding what is, in effect, a national opinion poll.

The one glaring omission that there has been in the answers that we've heard this afternoon is what representations the Welsh Government is going to make to the European Union about the events in Spain? Because, after all, there is in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, article 11, the term:

'Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.'

And so, what the Catalan separatists have done in Catalonia is no more than exercise their rights under article 11. But this fits in, of course, with the scheme of politics that the EU envisages for the Europe of the future. Guy Verhofstadt said the other day:

'The world of tomorrow is not a world order based on nation states or countries. It is a world order that is based on empires.'

That's something he said at the Liberal Democrat conference in the United Kingdom just a few days ago. And Jean-Claude Juncker said, notoriously, some time ago that there could be no democratic choice against the EU treaties. And so, what the Spanish Government is doing is simply following the line of the EU leaders that there could be no democratic choice against the dictatorship of Spain. Will she give the Welsh people's view, on behalf of us all, that no modern European state should be allowed with impunity to behave in this way?

I find it really strange that somebody who's proposed Brexit, who's encouraged Brexit, now wants us to go and tell the European Union what to do. I find it very odd. That is a strange way to approach politics, and, if you think we didn't have much influence before, I can suggest to you that we'll have very, very little, if the current Prime Minister succeeds in his plans to take us out on 31 October. I think it is important that we express our view to the UK Government, which is the appropriate authority. We have done that, and we have asked them what measures they are going to be taking in relation to this. They're the appropriate forum for us to express this view. 

Thank you, Minister. The next item is a question to the Minister for Economy and Transport, and the question is to be asked by David Rees.