We'll reconvene, and we're reconvening with group 5 of Stage 3 of the Senedd and Elections (Wales) Bill. The fifth group of amendments relates to the administration of elections. The lead amendment in this group is amendment 66, and I call on the Counsel General to move and speak to the lead amendment and to others in this group—Counsel General.

Amendment 66 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm happy to move the lead amendment and to speak to the other amendments in this group.

At Stage 2, the Bill was amended to include a new provision making the Electoral Commission accountable to the Senedd for the exercise of its functions in relation to devolved Welsh elections, and providing that the Electoral Commission would be funded for those functions from the Welsh consolidated fund.

I will take the Government amendments first. Amendments 66 and 67 remove the provisions in section 28 of the Bill enabling the Senedd to rename the statutory reference to the Llywydd’s committee by a simple resolution in Plenary. We don't, of course, object in principle to the Senedd choosing the names of its committees, but, in this case, the Llywydd's committee is to be referred to in statute and, more specifically, the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000. If the Bill allowed the Senedd to rename the Llywydd’s committee, that would mean that a Plenary resolution—a simple resolution—would therefore amend the primary legislation referencing that name. This isn't good law and, therefore, I ask the Assembly to remove those provisions.

Amendments 68, 83 and 84 remove provisions that define 2021-22 as the first financial year to which the provisions relating to the Electoral Commission would apply. As I said in Stage 2, there is further work to be done to ensure that the audit and accounting arrangements for Welsh-funded Electoral Commission work are robust and protect the Welsh consolidated fund account. The Welsh Government will not commence the Electoral Commission provisions until that work has been completed to the satisfaction of all parties involved. Removing the references to 2021-22 is consistent with this approach, and I ask the Assembly to support it.

I have brought forward amendments 69, 70, 71 and 72 following representations from the Electoral Commission. The Electoral Commission’s concerns were highlighted in advance of Stage 2 proceedings, and we have been discussing them with the Electoral Commission and also with the Llywydd and her officials. The Bill’s provisions, as inserted at Stage 2, require the Electoral Commission to submit both a financial estimate and accompanying work plan to the Llywydd’s committee for each financial year in relation to its work on devolved Welsh elections and devolved Welsh referendums. On reflection, the Llywydd and I agree with the Electoral Commission that this is disproportionate. Therefore, our amendments specify and limit the occasions when the Electoral Commission must submit a work plan. This will reduce the burden on the Electoral Commission. The amendments also provide further clarity on the role and the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General to undertake efficiency examinations where the financial estimate and work plan are submitted together, or where the financial estimate is submitted on its own.

The final Government amendment in this group is number 82. This is intended to correct a mistake in the English text of the Bill in relation to material inserted into Schedule 2 to the Bill by a Government amendment at Stage 2. The provision relates to a code of practice for devolved Welsh elections, so the words ‘or referendum’ are not needed here. Members will be aware that both Stage 2 and Stage 3 amendments making provision in relation to functions of the Speaker’s Committee, the Electoral Commission, the Treasury, and the Comptroller and Auditor General require Minister of the Crown consent. I am pleased to confirm that this consent has been obtained, and I am grateful to officials in the UK Government for facilitating that.

Members will recall that, during Stage 2 proceedings, I undertook to discuss with the Llywydd her proposal to change the balance between the functions of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Auditor General for Wales in relation to these provisions. This work is under way and is part of the wider discussions I have already mentioned, which are needed on the audit and accounting arrangements. When those discussions are concluded, we will report back to Members, and any further changes needed can be addressed in a future vehicle.

I now turn to the Llywydd’s amendments in this group. Amendment 87 reflects the Assembly’s decision at Stage 2 that the Bill should specify the Llywydd’s committee as the body responsible for oversight of the Electoral Commission, rather than allowing the Senedd to designate a committee. Thus we are proposing to replace the reference to the Llywydd’s committee as being 'designated' with a reference to its being 'established'.

Amendment 97 makes consequential amendments to ensure that the Electoral Commission provisions are described consistently in the Bill. The Government will be supporting both the Llywydd’s amendments. Diolch.

I do apologise to Members and to you, Dirprwy Lywydd, that it's time for me to get angry again, but perhaps I should try a slightly different approach and one of sadness rather than anger. I will be speaking against these amendments, apart from 82, which is a technical one, because, as I rehearsed with the issue of extending the franchise to foreign citizens, this whole area was replete with possible unintended consequences and poor thought in the original intention, and frankly just shouldn't have been in this Bill. It should have been, of course, as many witnesses told us, in a separate Government Bill.

I was pretty certain this was a shambolic approach and I did express this at Stage 2, and then we've just heard the Counsel General saying all sorts of bells and whistles now need to be attached to the Government's intentions. I have to say that, if you need any more convincing that this is a rushed and half-baked approach, just reflect on what the Counsel General has said. I really think, starting with amendment 68, this is just an example of how slipshod the Government has been, because they have again piggy-backed on a Commission Bill and have taken the approach of, 'We will do our homework tomorrow. We won't actually ask the Electoral Commission about the exact detail of the fine points they need, and we will not submit it to an appropriate level and early scrutiny'. The Government's own purpose and effect table states that,

'This amendment allows further work to be undertaken on the detail of the financial arrangements required to fund the Electoral Commission in relation to its work.'

So, the Government now felt the need to buy some extra time for policy development in an area that most feel should have been sorted out or dealt with in a separate Bill and presented in a complete form. Legislation should be complete and enable a policy direction, not merely start down the road to where we do not know.

Amendment 83 is the same. The purpose and effect table of this amendment states that, quote,

'The purpose of this amendment is to remove a provision that specifies the first financial year to which the new provisions about the Electoral Commission's financial estimates will apply.'

So, this amendment again leaves these changes open-ended, just to give time for co-ordination and to check what the Electoral Commission really think is appropriate. Well, when they come back, it's what we think that's appropriate that really needs to be the determining factor. So, again, I think this is a very poor approach, and similarly on amendment 84.

It seems to me that, in having to readjust all these time commitments, we're in the position of not really knowing what was fit for purpose in the first place, and now we're told at this stage, for heaven's sake, at Stage 3, what the Government thinks is best, without any chance of proper scrutiny and interrogation as we would have had had this been done at an earlier stage in this Bill.

I have to say that the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee, when looking at this, warned of these complications. It was one of the reasons we thought this was poorly advised, and this has now come home to haunt the Government, though they don't seem particularly embarrassed, I must say, at the comprehensive nature of their amendments to try and bring some order into what they urged at Stage 2. But I really do believe that accountability is a serious requirement and we need to be satisfied that the system proposed will be able to deliver that. It may be that it's a much more coherent model that the Counsel General has just proposed, and I'm sure his consultations with the Electoral Commission went very, very well, but the whole purpose here is supposed to be to strengthen a relationship between this place and the Electoral Commission, and yet we've got the Government doing all the damn negotiations on it, without us as Members having any primary say or oversight. I find it really, really peculiar. And, again, the fundamental point is that this whole part of the Bill was not there originally, and needed proper work done on it. And that implied, in my view anyway, that it would have been better done in the Government's own Bill—the local government and elections Bill—that is proposed.

So, again, it's very, very disappointing. We could have used this Bill as a model for legislation in general—a Commission Bill on an important constitutional area, demonstrating how we wanted our legislative stages to proceed, and how the vital aspect of scrutiny is applied. And, frankly, we've not done a good job. And to think that, in this particular area, it's about the very body that is there to advise and ensure that we have the means for fair and free elections. So, again, I'm very, very disappointed. I'm under no illusions of what success I'll have here. My dear friend here, Andrew R.T., whispered after my previous contribution, 'It wouldn't matter if you were Abraham Lincoln'—with all these arguments, there'll be no shift. But I do hope Members will reflect on some of the things I've said—they're very sincerely made. And I do think this whole sorry saga should require us to reflect very carefully in future on how we make such important, foundational, really, constitutional law.

Thank you. Can I call on the Llywydd?

I thank the Deputy Presiding Officer. Despite what we've just heard from David Melding, I am fairly confident that we have come relatively far in discussing issues with regard to the accountability of the Electoral Commission since this Bill was introduced. I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Finance Committee and the Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee for their consideration of these matters to date. And they have been discussed in a great deal of detail, and I and the Counsel General and the Electoral Commission and others have given evidence on this policy before those committees on various occasions. And I also want to thank the Counsel General and his officials for working with us on this process, and to Electoral Commission itself for its collaboration.

The amendments tabled in my name discussed today, and those tabled in the name of the Counsel General, reflect the ongoing work that has been carried out since Stage 2 proceedings as well, to ensure that the provisions can be implemented successfully. And it’s also important to note here that the consent of the Minister of the Crown has been received since Stage 2 as well. And thank you to everyone who was involved in ensuring that consent.

I ask Members, therefore, to support amendment 87 in my name, which is a technical amendment to provide consistency with other changes to the Bill made at Stage 2. I also urge Members to support my amendment 97, which ensures consistency across the Bill with amendments that were agreed during Stage 2, to fund the Electoral Commission directly from the Welsh consolidated fund, as well as tidying up out-of-date references in the Political Parties, Elections and Referendums Act 2000.

When considered together, the Counsel General’s amendments 66 and 67 remove the Senedd’s ability to call the Llywydd’s committee by another name, if they wish to do so, without recourse to primary legislation. This flexibility was a deliberate feature of the provisions amended at Stage 2, and it reflected the approach taken to the referencing of the Audit Committee in the Government of Wales Act 2006, which the Assembly has since decided to call the Public Accounts Committee. Therefore, there is a benefit in enabling the Assembly to determine such matters in a more flexible way than in primary legislation. However, I also understand the rationale behind the Counsel General’s amendments, as he has outlined them this afternoon.

During Stage 2, the Assembly agreed an amendment tabled by the Counsel General that gives the Welsh Ministers the power to commence section 28 of the Bill by Order. The Counsel General explained that he would do so once he was satisfied with the audit and accountability arrangements associated with other amendments made to section 28. I agree that the provisions in the Bill relating to the Electoral Commission should not take effect until we are certain that they can be implemented effectively and that the funding arrangements are in place. Therefore, I support the Counsel General’s amendments 68, 83 and 84, which remove reference to the year 2021-2 as the first financial year to which the provisions in section 28 relate.

Since Stage 2 proceedings, the Counsel General and I have continued discussions about how the Senedd can ensure that it has appropriate mechanisms in place to hold the Electoral Commission to account for its work in relation to devolved Welsh referenda and elections. I’m confident that amendments 69, 70, 71 and 72 balance the Senedd’s need to have the tools and means at its disposal to carry out effective scrutiny of the Electoral Commission’s work, whilst avoiding placing excessive demands on the Electoral Commission or other UK-wide bodies or governmental departments.

Finally, I ask Members to support the Counsel General’s amendment 82, which corrects a drafting error in the Bill, following amendments at Stage 2.

Thank you. I call on the Counsel General to reply to the debate.

I thank the Llywydd and David Melding for their contributions to the debate. Clearly, we share the objective of creating clear and accountable financing arrangements for the Electoral Commission, reflecting their responsibilities to the Senedd. And I would just say that the amendments made at Stage 3 are a reflection of the discussion had in the Chamber at Stage 2.

There were competing approaches towards the accountability of the Electoral Commission to the Senedd, and Members will recall that, at scrutiny, the Finance Committee, in particular, was very clear that their position should be that we should find a way with the Llywydd of making the proposed amendments that the Llywydd wished to make workable, and we have done that. The mechanism for doing that, as Members will recall, is to delay the commencement until precisely the audit and accountability arrangements, which we wish to see in place, have been explored further. That was never going to be possible by Stage 3—that is a set of discussions involving a range of third parties. But the ambition there and the objective is to work with the Llywydd, as we have been doing, to ensure that those arrangements are in place, to the satisfaction of all, so that the Electoral Commission is accountable in the way that it should be.

I'll echo the Llywydd's thanks to the committees for their scrutiny and ask Members to support the Government's amendments and the amendments that the Llywydd has moved.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 66 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We therefore proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 39, no abstentions, 16 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 66: For: 39, Against: 16, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 67.

Amendment 67 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 67 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 39, no abstentions, 16 against. Therefore, amendment 67 is agreed.

Amendment 67: For: 39, Against: 16, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 68.

Amendment 68 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 68 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 68 is agreed.

Amendment 68: For: 40, Against: 14, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 69.

Amendment 69 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. As there is an amendment to amendment 69, that amendment will be disposed of first. David Melding, amendment 69A.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you.

Amendment 69A (David Melding) not moved.

The question is that amendment 69 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, amendment 69 is agreed.

Amendment 69: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 70.

Amendment 70 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 70 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, amendment 70 is agreed.

Amendment 70: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 71.

Amendment 71 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 71 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 71: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 72.

Amendment 72 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 72 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we move to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, four abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 72 is agreed.

Amendment 72: For: 40, Against: 11, Abstain: 4

Amendment has been agreed

David Melding, amendment 20.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you.

Amendment 20 (David Melding) not moved.

Llywydd, amendment 87.

Amendment 87 (Elin Jones) moved.

Move.

The question is that amendment 87 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 44, no abstentions, 11 against. Therefore, amendment 87 is agreed.

Amendment 87: For: 44, Against: 11, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

David Melding, amendment 55.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you.

Amendment 55 (David Melding) not moved.

Carwyn Jones, amendment 157.

Amendment 157 (Carwyn Jones) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 157 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 41, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 157 is agreed.

Amendment 157: For: 41, Against: 14, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

David Melding, amendment 56.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you.

Amendment 56 (David Melding) not moved.

Carwyn Jones, amendment 158.

Amendment 158 (Carwyn Jones) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 158 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Therefore, we proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 41, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 158 is agreed.

Amendment 158: For: 41, Against: 14, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 82.

Amendment 82 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 82 be agreed to. Does any Member object? Amendment 82 is agreed.

Amendment agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

David Melding, amendment 57.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you. 

Amendment 57 (David Melding) not moved.

Carwyn Jones, amendment 159.

Amendment 159 (Carwyn Jones) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. The question is that amendment 159 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Okay, so we proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 42, no abstentions, 13 against. Therefore, amendment 159 is agreed.

Amendment 159: For: 42, Against: 13, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Llywydd, amendment 97.

Amendment 97 (Elin Jones) moved.

Move.

The question is that amendment 97 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We proceed to an electronic vote. Open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, amendment 97 is agreed.

Amendment 97: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment 83.

Amendment 83 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

The question is that amendment 83 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] We proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 83: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Counsel General, amendment—sorry, I've just lost it now—[Interruption.] Eighty-four. Thank you. I'm seeing spots before my eyes. [Laughter.] Amendment 84, Counsel General.

Amendment 84 (Jeremy Miles) moved.

Formally.

The question is that amendment 84 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. So, we proceed to an electronic vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the amendment 40, no abstentions, 15 against. Therefore, the amendment is agreed.

Amendment 84: For: 40, Against: 15, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

David Melding, amendment 21.

Not moved.

Not moved. Thank you.

Amendment 21 (David Melding) not moved.

Carwyn Jones, amendment 130.

Amendment 130 (Carwyn Jones) moved.

Formally.

Thank you. If amendment 130 is agreed, amendment 22 will fall. The question is that amendment 130 be agreed to. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Object. Therefore, we go to an electronic vote. And open the vote. And open the vote. Close the vote. For the motion 41, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, amendment 130 is agreed and amendment 22 will fall.

Amendment 130: For: 41, Against: 14, Abstain: 0

Amendment has been agreed

Amendment 22 fell.