2. What discussions has the Counsel General had with Cabinet colleagues about developing legislative proposals to help reduce the number of children being taken into care in Wales? OAQ54691

Safely reducing the number of children taken into care is a priority for this Government. No discussions have been held about developing legislation to do so. The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 already provides a comprehensive legislative framework for local authorities so they can provide appropriate support to families experiencing difficulties, thereby helping children and families stay together.

Thank you, Minister. With the number of looked-after children in having reached the highest number since records began in 2003, I am not surprised that the commission on justice has raised alarm. I appreciate that there are plans to see an average reduction of 4 per cent in each of the next three years, but there is a need to consider an additional approach. Now, for example, in England, family drug and alcohol courts help to solve problems in families at risk of losing children to care. More so, the evidence from the London FDAC evaluation is that, over five years, for each £1 spent, £2.30 is saved. Bearing in mind the positive impact that FDACs can have on families and the public purse, will you advise how the Welsh Government is going to act on the recommendation that FDACs should be established here?

I thank the Member for that further question. As I indicated in my original answer, it is a priority to safely reduce the number of children taken into care, and she will be aware of the investment that the Government has made from the integrated care fund in order to seek to improve the position overall. She refers specifically in relation to the work of the commission for justice, and I, as she has, have read the recommendations that the commission has made. There have been ongoing discussions with the family liaison judge for Wales, with the Children and Family Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru, and through the family justice network and local family justice boards, there will be further work undertaken to strengthen the relationship with the judiciary in this area.

But the broader point that she makes in relation to the recommendations of the commission—she will have heard the First Minister's statement in the Chamber on the recommendations overall recently, and there will be a debate and other steps taken in the new year that will give an opportunity for those recommendations to be considered further on the floor of this Assembly. But the recommendations made are a very considered, very compellingly argued set of recommendations for giving people in Wales the justice system that they deserve, and, in particular, tackling this very important issue of the role and presence of looked-after children in the criminal justice system.

I'm grateful to the Counsel General for his response to Janet Finch-Saunders's question. I wonder if he agrees with me that, while the overall reduction target of 4 per cent is to be welcomed and that none of us wish to see children unnecessarily taken into care, no such overall targets should influence decisions regarding individual children. It has been put to me by some front-line social workers that they may be put under pressure not to take care proceedings in some circumstances where, perhaps, they should do so. So, will he agree with me that those overall targets should not deter local authorities from taking the appropriate legal proceedings to protect an individual child, even if that does affect their ability to deliver on what, in my opinion, is a slightly artificial target that the Government has set?

Well, I don't wish to stray into the policy responsibilities of the Deputy Minister in relation to this, but she will note, I think, that the work under way is work that works collaboratively with local authorities in relation to this area. We've been absolutely clear as a Government that we take a safety first approach in relation to these judgments, consistent with that overall ambition, and that nothing, of course, overrides the need to protect children from abuse or neglect. I'm pleased to say that the Children's Commissioner for Wales has recognised that safety first approach to this work, and I believe is supportive of the manner in which we are trying to achieve that ambition.

Of course, we all agree that we want to see a safe reduction in the numbers of children entering the care system, but there are significant differences in approach as to how we deal with that, and I'm sure you're aware that the Children, Young People and Education Committee has expressed significant concerns about the presence of a numerical target. And, actually, the children's commissioner told our committee two weeks ago that she did not support a numerical target, although she did support efforts to safely reduce the numbers of children in care. You will be aware that, as well as the qualified support that the commission gave to steps to reduce the numbers of children in care, it also said specifically there should be vigorous support for a programme of research to underpin reform of Welsh family justice and associated preventative services. The overarching aim should be the reduction in the numbers of children taken into care and the provision of far better evidence of the impact of intervention on family life. A carefully thought through, long-term policy for reducing the numbers of children taken into care should be developed after the conclusions of the research are undertaken, and then implemented. What assurances can you give that the Government will be taking that very considered approach to what could be a very sensitive and high-risk policy?

I'm anxious not to trespass into the policy responsibilities of my colleague in Government, but I know that the Children, Young People and Education Committee has obviously looked very carefully at the issues, which the Member, as Chair of the committee, is setting out in the Chamber today. And I'll make sure that my Government colleague, the Deputy Minister, has heard the points that the Member has made today in the discussion.