Yes, and there's an issue with rolling stock across the United Kingdom, and I think it would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when people want a seat on the train. It would be foolhardy to remove Pacers when there is nothing to replace them with. As a committee member, I've been to the Canton depot three times and I've seen the heroic work that is going on there to keep the rolling stock together. There is simply no other rolling stock available in this country to put directly on the line to replace the Pacers immediately. [Interruption.]  I'm not going to take another intervention, because I won't have much time.

The other thing I'd say is Russell George knows very well, because he was Chair of the committee that took the evidence when the Welsh Government told us—the Minister told us—that the Welsh Government went to the UK Government in 2011 to request support to bring in diesel capacity to the Welsh lines, and the UK Government said to the Welsh Government, 'Under no circumstances must you have any more diesel stock on that line because diesel will be obsolete very soon because we're going to electrify the lines.' That never happened, that diesel stock was never allowed to be bought. And the Chair of committee—who I like, I like Russell George very much as Chair of committee; I like him less in his position as a spokesperson for the Conservative Party—knows very well that that's exactly what was said.